My first ever HPDE--was this a bad experience?

NHills1LE · 05-30-2021, 10:01 PM

Just looking for some feedback. Did my first ever HPDE recently, with a well-known HPDE group at a well-known track, but would rather not mention the specifics. It didn't go well, in my opinion, but not sure what else really could have happened.

Had never karted or done any sort of track driving before, which was known to the school and my instructor. The course is a complex, unpredictable one, lots of irregular, turns and hills, etc., a few blind curves, a few hairpins. So for the first session, I go out with my instructor in the novice group, and we start around the track. He patiently tells me to stay on the line, and tells me where the line is on each curve, but he seemed to assume I'd be able to remember that for every unpredictable curve, along with where to turn in, where to brake, where to release the brakes, etc. As we picked up speed, that got really hard to do, and he seemed to not understand why I wasn't easily remembering it all.

And though this was the novice group, there were solo drivers in the group who clearly had a lot of experience, driving heavily modded cars, who were in a screaming hurry to pass me whenever they could. It's hard to learn when you've got two or three faster cars perpetually on your rear bumper, waiting for the limited passing opportunities.

Is this how a first HPDE should go? I realized pretty quickly that not having memorized all the various turns/hairpins/hills put me at a huge disadvantage, but no one had ever suggested that I should do so. I also think totally new drivers shouldn't be out on the track with anyone else besides their instructor, but maybe I'm making too much of this.

The instructor was patient, but the experience was pretty miserable. Would like to hear some other opinions. Thanks.

Vtor_ZL1 · 05-30-2021, 10:10 PM

Sounds like a track day, you move fast, you have to learn faster. Looks easy on TV or youtube don't it?

Get more seat time, whether you try another track day or local autox club to learn to read the track. Tracks are predictable, its the same turns lap after lap.

You'll get better with more seat time. There is no magic fix for that.

Worry about the track in front of your, *know* where the passing areas are and get your point by finger ready. Easiest is to land park the track in your head. I can't remember corner names or numbers, so land marks work for me. Passing zone past the port-a-potties over the right side, etc.

Did you also have classroom sessions ?

Track sounds like short track at NJMP.. lightning?

20Bluezl1 · 05-30-2021, 10:17 PM

So it could be a little overwhelming for someone that hasn't been in a track environment. My suggestion it brush off everything that happened and just remember the track. Don't worry about the guys that are on your bumper and get nervous, the key point in remembering is learnings the passing zones and give point by's.

Also hit YouTube and try to learn the track a little more so you have a little more confidence.

sr71bb · 05-30-2021, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHills1LE

Just looking for some feedback. Did my first ever HPDE recently, with a well-known HPDE group at a well-known track, but would rather not mention the specifics. It didn't go well, in my opinion, but not sure what else really could have happened.

Had never karted or done any sort of track driving before, which was known to the school and my instructor. The course is a complex, unpredictable one, lots of irregular, turns and hills, etc., a few blind curves, a few hairpins. So for the first session, I go out with my instructor in the novice group, and we start around the track. He patiently tells me to stay on the line, and tells me where the line is on each curve, but he seemed to assume I'd be able to remember that for every unpredictable curve, along with where to turn in, where to brake, where to release the brakes, etc. As we picked up speed, that got really hard to do, and he seemed to not understand why I wasn't easily remembering it all.

And though this was the novice group, there were solo drivers in the group who clearly had a lot of experience, driving heavily modded cars, who were in a screaming hurry to pass me whenever they could. It's hard to learn when you've got two or three faster cars perpetually on your rear bumper, waiting for the limited passing opportunities.

Is this how a first HPDE should go? I realized pretty quickly that not having memorized all the various turns/hairpins/hills put me at a huge disadvantage, but no one had ever suggested that I should do so. I also think totally new drivers shouldn't be out on the track with anyone else besides their instructor, but maybe I'm making too much of this.

The instructor was patient, but the experience was pretty miserable. Would like to hear some other opinions. Thanks.

Well quite frankly we all have had bad days at the track. And the only way though to work through all that is to have a driving experience with the different groups so you can see which provides you the most positive experience.

For example early on, I was doing a TWO day driving school with about 5-6 track sessions per day. After 3-4 of these events I decided I was NOT going to do those schools again because I found myself mentally and physically drained after a full weekend of racing. Plus the scheduling of the track sessions and the classroom sections was so tight, you felt like you never had a enough time to REALLY enjoy the experience. In SHORT, I was NOT really having what I would call a GOOD TIME so you have to ask yourself WHY DO IT???

I then did 4-5 One day events where the format was LEAD/FOLLOW. Basically the instructor was in the car in FRONT of you and you followed in your car HIS line and observed HIS braking points. I liked THIS format MUCH better and I noticed my progression in driving skill accelerated.

Also make note of the tracks you dont really like to run on. For example down here in my neck of the woods I DO NOT like to run the 1.3 mile Motorsports Ranch track configuration. That course is very technical with blind corners and in my opinion requires a VERY ADVANCED driver which I currently am NOT so I dont run it. I can also say the same for the Motorsports Ranch 1.7 mile configuration in the CLOCKWISE direction. HOWEVER in the COUNTER CLOCKWISE direction, it is a BLAST to drive.

MY favorite track above all others is EAGLES CANYON CCW This track is VERY fast and I will go to an event here above all others.

I would suggest that you run at least 3-4 more events and try out the different formats. Usually driving skill is learned in a non-progressive manner so that for whatever reason something will usually CLICK and you wont realized exactly why you are going faster but your are. Slower in turns, faster out and be like BUTTER, you will be faster.

Tay · 05-30-2021, 11:03 PM

Track days can be stressful. I have been doing track days for years and I still get stressed out and I still don't feel 100% comfortable.

Some thoughts and suggestions for you:

-This may seem counter intuitive, but you may want to try a few track days without an instructor. It could take some of the pressure off and it will allow you to go at your own pace.

Once you get more comfortable being on the track, try having an instructor again. You will be able to focus more on their instruction.

-There is always going to be someone that doesn't belong in a run group. Wether it be a novice driver in an intermediate group or vice versa. It happens all the time. .

The key in your case is to be courteous and considerate of who is behind you, so that you can give them the point by. There is nothing more annoying than being stuck behind a slow driver and not getting the point by.

Also, do not get in the habit of drag racing corner to corner. If a Miata is catching you in the turns, when you get to the straightaway, let off the gas and give them the point by

-What I suggest you do that helps a lot is start at the back of the grid, so that no one is behind you and you can just focus who is in front of you. When you're making your way to grid, just let everyone line up ahead of you.

*One thing to constantly think about is slow in/ fast out. If there are multiple turns in a row, the last turn is the most important apex to hit. So instead of trying to hit every apex, focus hitting the last apex of each set of turns. I hope this makes sense. I am not always the best at articulating things through the keyboard.

N Camarolina · 05-30-2021, 11:19 PM

I'll second the recommendation to watch youtube videos (in advance) of the track you'll be going to.

There's a lot of things you must simultaneously focus on while you are driving on track (racing line, making smooth control inputs, situational awareness of flag towers and other cars, managing traffic with point by). The biggest hurdle to not being able to mentally handle all those things is not knowing the racing line (where the apex is for each turn, when to turn in so you hit the apex, and how to connect each corner together). If you can arrive at the track and already know the racing line, then you can put your focus on the other tasks, which then are more manageable.

I went to a new track for the first time last month, but took the time to watch videos until I knew the racing line. Everything went well and I had a lot of fun when the big day arrived. I've watched many other "first timers" at new tracks and see many struggle simply because they need time to learn the racing line.

Another thing that helps for learning a track is video games or racing simulators (particularly if you use a wheel and pedal set-up). I just got back from VIR today, a very demanding track. Having comparatively little on-track time, I would not be able to drive as well as am had it not been for all the laps I've done on the computer. It's amazing how accurate the simulator models the track and car behavior dynamics.

Nobody said learning to drive on track would be easy, but if you make some time investment to better prepare yourself, the reward is less frustration and considerably more fun. I think it's worth it because it's the only place you can drive a vehicle to near it's handling limits safely and legally.

Baddawg53 · 05-30-2021, 11:22 PM

I think you nailed it in your first post. Going into my first track day I kinda had a similar experience in not having the track memorized. Now going into a track for my first time I spend considerable time on YouTube memorizing the track, turn numbers, turn ins and apexes. I'll start those tracks in the back and take it easy the first session because it's always a bit different in real life.

Hopefully after day 1 you started to nail down the track and started to learn the car. You'll be considerably better and more confident day 2. Probably even the solo guy annoyed at the first timers being in the way. I remember being humbled and overwhelmed my first few sessions, by day 2 and 3 it was a completely different experience, and I'm fully addicted.

ponyboy96 · 05-30-2021, 11:34 PM

Lots of more experienced drivers on this thread. As a novice driver myself, we’ve all been there. I find griding in the back helps, but not too far back or the front guys catch you. You know you’ll be a faster than the others, but you can take your time and learn the track and your lines. I’ve found I have more fun when I don’t have an instructor in the car with me. As far as traffic and pressure, that’s kind of part of it, but when you don’t know the track it sucks. Definitely watch track videos, sit in your car, close you eyes and visualize every turn, every brake point and visual marker (that crack or line, second hash on the gator, etc). It really helps. I usually spend my time studying the track map and watching my PDR when I’m off track to see what I did where and what I can do to improve next.

SoCal Smith · 05-30-2021, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHills1LE

Just looking for some feedback. Did my first ever HPDE recently, with a well-known HPDE group at a well-known track, but would rather not mention the specifics. It didn't go well, in my opinion, but not sure what else really could have happened.

Had never karted or done any sort of track driving before, which was known to the school and my instructor. The course is a complex, unpredictable one, lots of irregular, turns and hills, etc., a few blind curves, a few hairpins. So for the first session, I go out with my instructor in the novice group, and we start around the track. He patiently tells me to stay on the line, and tells me where the line is on each curve, but he seemed to assume I'd be able to remember that for every unpredictable curve, along with where to turn in, where to brake, where to release the brakes, etc. As we picked up speed, that got really hard to do, and he seemed to not understand why I wasn't easily remembering it all.

And though this was the novice group, there were solo drivers in the group who clearly had a lot of experience, driving heavily modded cars, who were in a screaming hurry to pass me whenever they could. It's hard to learn when you've got two or three faster cars perpetually on your rear bumper, waiting for the limited passing opportunities.

Is this how a first HPDE should go? I realized pretty quickly that not having memorized all the various turns/hairpins/hills put me at a huge disadvantage, but no one had ever suggested that I should do so. I also think totally new drivers shouldn't be out on the track with anyone else besides their instructor, but maybe I'm making too much of this.

The instructor was patient, but the experience was pretty miserable. Would like to hear some other opinions. Thanks.

I would suggest watching many many youtube videos of people driving on the track prior to going so that you already know the line and you are focusing more on what you can get out of the car (at your comfort level) I would never feel pressured if someone is behind me waiting to pass. (Never happens, I have a zl1 1le ;p JK)

Zl1+911 · 05-31-2021, 04:49 AM

As a fairly experienced driver I would say that no matter how well u prepare the first day is overwhelming. It’s just a LOT to take in.

My suggestion- go back to the same track, get a new instructor- different instructors have different styles - before the next event - send an email to the CHief driving instructor (CDI) and explain to him your goals and your previous experience and ask for a more seasoned instructor.

I would however not suggest going out without one for where you are - except if the format is lead follow.

I also recommend PCA events - they are very well run and instructors are too notch. U don’t have to have a porsche to join.

jimmyp · 05-31-2021, 05:38 AM

Unfortunately, the first time at any track is spent trying to remember the track, especially if it's a long one. I'm Sure the next time you go there you'll have a much better time of it.

Gunkk · 05-31-2021, 07:16 AM

Don't sweat it, we've all been rookies who had to learn.

NHills1LE · 05-31-2021, 07:30 AM

Thanks guys. Lots of good suggestions here. I really think not knowing the track was the biggest obstacle--it has 19 unique curves and a number of hills, and was impossible to learn to any extent while driving at what seemed to me a high speed.

If I'd have thought to ask for advice here before I went, probably a few of you would have told me how important it is to know the track ahead of time. But as the saying goes: "You don't know--what you don't know."

I'll take in all this advice and plan to try again. The lead/follow format seems like it might really help.

G61LE · 05-31-2021, 08:15 AM

I have done a ton of PCA, NASA, and PBOC weekends, and all of them put on good events, and initially I was running in black, one step below red (instructors), but it seemed that both the black and red groups thought this was an actual race, and I felt I was constantly stressed out because these guys would take a pass with or without a point by sometimes. So I jumped down to the white run group, and I soon found I was too fast for that group, and I was getting frustrated with them not giving ME the point by fast enough. So I was doing to them, what the fast guys in black were doing to me. So I now run in black again, and just stay focused on "my" driving and don't sweat the fast guys. But what I am suggesting is there are several smaller events that usually run a one day event and limit the amount of drivers to 35 drivers, and there are no run groups, so basically, its open track from 8 am to 5 pm, with the exception of lunch from 12 to 1. So what you get, is a ton of track time, and allot less drivers on the track at the same time. I have run with Open Throttle several times, they are one dayers, and limited to 35 drivers, also Track Night in America put on great events. These one day events usually cost almost as much as the two day events, but you get as much, if not more track time than the two day events.

05-30-2021, 10:01 PM	#1
NHills1LE Drives: 2021 1SS 1LE Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 7	My first ever HPDE--was this a bad experience? Just looking for some feedback. Did my first ever HPDE recently, with a well-known HPDE group at a well-known track, but would rather not mention the specifics. It didn't go well, in my opinion, but not sure what else really could have happened. Had never karted or done any sort of track driving before, which was known to the school and my instructor. The course is a complex, unpredictable one, lots of irregular, turns and hills, etc., a few blind curves, a few hairpins. So for the first session, I go out with my instructor in the novice group, and we start around the track. He patiently tells me to stay on the line, and tells me where the line is on each curve, but he seemed to assume I'd be able to remember that for every unpredictable curve, along with where to turn in, where to brake, where to release the brakes, etc. As we picked up speed, that got really hard to do, and he seemed to not understand why I wasn't easily remembering it all. And though this was the novice group, there were solo drivers in the group who clearly had a lot of experience, driving heavily modded cars, who were in a screaming hurry to pass me whenever they could. It's hard to learn when you've got two or three faster cars perpetually on your rear bumper, waiting for the limited passing opportunities. Is this how a first HPDE should go? I realized pretty quickly that not having memorized all the various turns/hairpins/hills put me at a huge disadvantage, but no one had ever suggested that I should do so. I also think totally new drivers shouldn't be out on the track with anyone else besides their instructor, but maybe I'm making too much of this. The instructor was patient, but the experience was pretty miserable. Would like to hear some other opinions. Thanks.

05-30-2021, 10:10 PM	#2
Vtor_ZL1 Who Needs to KNOW? Drives: 18 ZLE Join Date: May 2018 Location: Left Side of the Moon Posts: 1,776	Sounds like a track day, you move fast, you have to learn faster. Looks easy on TV or youtube don't it? Get more seat time, whether you try another track day or local autox club to learn to read the track. Tracks are predictable, its the same turns lap after lap. You'll get better with more seat time. There is no magic fix for that. Worry about the track in front of your, know where the passing areas are and get your point by finger ready. Easiest is to land park the track in your head. I can't remember corner names or numbers, so land marks work for me. Passing zone past the port-a-potties over the right side, etc. Did you also have classroom sessions ? Track sounds like short track at NJMP.. lightning? __________________ ing for grip. Are you in the NY/NJ/PA/CT region? Join us for autox fun at MetLife Stadium. HUGE lots, tons of runs. http://www.motorsportsne.com/

05-30-2021, 10:17 PM	#3
20Bluezl1 Drives: 2020 Zl1 A10 Riverside Blue Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: NJ Posts: 1,236	So it could be a little overwhelming for someone that hasn't been in a track environment. My suggestion it brush off everything that happened and just remember the track. Don't worry about the guys that are on your bumper and get nervous, the key point in remembering is learnings the passing zones and give point by's. Also hit YouTube and try to learn the track a little more so you have a little more confidence.

05-30-2021, 11:03 PM	#5
Tay Drives: 1985 Oldsmobuick Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: San Diego Posts: 158	Track days can be stressful. I have been doing track days for years and I still get stressed out and I still don't feel 100% comfortable. Some thoughts and suggestions for you: -This may seem counter intuitive, but you may want to try a few track days without an instructor. It could take some of the pressure off and it will allow you to go at your own pace. Once you get more comfortable being on the track, try having an instructor again. You will be able to focus more on their instruction. -There is always going to be someone that doesn't belong in a run group. Wether it be a novice driver in an intermediate group or vice versa. It happens all the time. . The key in your case is to be courteous and considerate of who is behind you, so that you can give them the point by. There is nothing more annoying than being stuck behind a slow driver and not getting the point by. Also, do not get in the habit of drag racing corner to corner. If a Miata is catching you in the turns, when you get to the straightaway, let off the gas and give them the point by -What I suggest you do that helps a lot is start at the back of the grid, so that no one is behind you and you can just focus who is in front of you. When you're making your way to grid, just let everyone line up ahead of you. *One thing to constantly think about is slow in/ fast out. If there are multiple turns in a row, the last turn is the most important apex to hit. So instead of trying to hit every apex, focus hitting the last apex of each set of turns. I hope this makes sense. I am not always the best at articulating things through the keyboard.

05-30-2021, 11:19 PM	#6
N Camarolina Drives: 2021 2SS 1LE Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 832	I'll second the recommendation to watch youtube videos (in advance) of the track you'll be going to. There's a lot of things you must simultaneously focus on while you are driving on track (racing line, making smooth control inputs, situational awareness of flag towers and other cars, managing traffic with point by). The biggest hurdle to not being able to mentally handle all those things is not knowing the racing line (where the apex is for each turn, when to turn in so you hit the apex, and how to connect each corner together). If you can arrive at the track and already know the racing line, then you can put your focus on the other tasks, which then are more manageable. I went to a new track for the first time last month, but took the time to watch videos until I knew the racing line. Everything went well and I had a lot of fun when the big day arrived. I've watched many other "first timers" at new tracks and see many struggle simply because they need time to learn the racing line. Another thing that helps for learning a track is video games or racing simulators (particularly if you use a wheel and pedal set-up). I just got back from VIR today, a very demanding track. Having comparatively little on-track time, I would not be able to drive as well as am had it not been for all the laps I've done on the computer. It's amazing how accurate the simulator models the track and car behavior dynamics. Nobody said learning to drive on track would be easy, but if you make some time investment to better prepare yourself, the reward is less frustration and considerably more fun. I think it's worth it because it's the only place you can drive a vehicle to near it's handling limits safely and legally.

05-30-2021, 11:22 PM	#7
Baddawg53 Drives: 17 hyper blue 2SS M6 Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: NorCal Posts: 624	I think you nailed it in your first post. Going into my first track day I kinda had a similar experience in not having the track memorized. Now going into a track for my first time I spend considerable time on YouTube memorizing the track, turn numbers, turn ins and apexes. I'll start those tracks in the back and take it easy the first session because it's always a bit different in real life. Hopefully after day 1 you started to nail down the track and started to learn the car. You'll be considerably better and more confident day 2. Probably even the solo guy annoyed at the first timers being in the way. I remember being humbled and overwhelmed my first few sessions, by day 2 and 3 it was a completely different experience, and I'm fully addicted.

05-30-2021, 11:34 PM	#8
ponyboy96 Drives: 2020 ZLE A10, 2018 F250 Diesel Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: Atlanta Posts: 148	Lots of more experienced drivers on this thread. As a novice driver myself, we’ve all been there. I find griding in the back helps, but not too far back or the front guys catch you. You know you’ll be a faster than the others, but you can take your time and learn the track and your lines. I’ve found I have more fun when I don’t have an instructor in the car with me. As far as traffic and pressure, that’s kind of part of it, but when you don’t know the track it sucks. Definitely watch track videos, sit in your car, close you eyes and visualize every turn, every brake point and visual marker (that crack or line, second hash on the gator, etc). It really helps. I usually spend my time studying the track map and watching my PDR when I’m off track to see what I did where and what I can do to improve next.

05-31-2021, 04:49 AM	#10
Zl1+911 Drives: 997 GTS, ZL1 A10, ZLEM6, ZLEA10 Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: NYC/NJ Posts: 630	As a fairly experienced driver I would say that no matter how well u prepare the first day is overwhelming. It’s just a LOT to take in. My suggestion- go back to the same track, get a new instructor- different instructors have different styles - before the next event - send an email to the CHief driving instructor (CDI) and explain to him your goals and your previous experience and ask for a more seasoned instructor. I would however not suggest going out without one for where you are - except if the format is lead follow. I also recommend PCA events - they are very well run and instructors are too notch. U don’t have to have a porsche to join.

05-31-2021, 05:38 AM	#11
jimmyp Drives: 2013 Camaro Convertible Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: New York Posts: 134	Unfortunately, the first time at any track is spent trying to remember the track, especially if it's a long one. I'm Sure the next time you go there you'll have a much better time of it.

05-31-2021, 07:16 AM	#12
Gunkk Thank you Al Oppenheiser! Drives: Red Hot A10 ZL1 Convertible Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Sarasota, FL Posts: 5,013 View My Garage	Don't sweat it, we've all been rookies who had to learn.

05-31-2021, 07:30 AM	#13
NHills1LE Drives: 2021 1SS 1LE Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 7	Thanks guys. Lots of good suggestions here. I really think not knowing the track was the biggest obstacle--it has 19 unique curves and a number of hills, and was impossible to learn to any extent while driving at what seemed to me a high speed. If I'd have thought to ask for advice here before I went, probably a few of you would have told me how important it is to know the track ahead of time. But as the saying goes: "You don't know--what you don't know." I'll take in all this advice and plan to try again. The lead/follow format seems like it might really help.

05-31-2021, 08:15 AM	#14
G61LE Drives: 2019 Camaro ZL1 // 1LE Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: Jacksonville, Florida Posts: 151	I have done a ton of PCA, NASA, and PBOC weekends, and all of them put on good events, and initially I was running in black, one step below red (instructors), but it seemed that both the black and red groups thought this was an actual race, and I felt I was constantly stressed out because these guys would take a pass with or without a point by sometimes. So I jumped down to the white run group, and I soon found I was too fast for that group, and I was getting frustrated with them not giving ME the point by fast enough. So I was doing to them, what the fast guys in black were doing to me. So I now run in black again, and just stay focused on "my" driving and don't sweat the fast guys. But what I am suggesting is there are several smaller events that usually run a one day event and limit the amount of drivers to 35 drivers, and there are no run groups, so basically, its open track from 8 am to 5 pm, with the exception of lunch from 12 to 1. So what you get, is a ton of track time, and allot less drivers on the track at the same time. I have run with Open Throttle several times, they are one dayers, and limited to 35 drivers, also Track Night in America put on great events. These one day events usually cost almost as much as the two day events, but you get as much, if not more track time than the two day events.

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