Rod bolt torque after piston swap or ring regap?

PRAY · 07-30-2017, 07:24 AM

For you guys that have either regapped your rings or done drop in pistons for boost, what did you torque your rod bolts to? I am guessing that the rod bolts are like any other GM bolt and are TTY and shouldn't be reused. Are there aftermarket versions and if so, do the rods need to be resized? I am trying to get all my ducks in a row before I put the blower on either way later this year or early next year. Going for 9's H/C first.

LibertyHill · 07-30-2017, 07:46 AM

Owners have regapped their rings? What have they found the gaps to be before regapping and what are they increasing the gaps to with FI??

Do you think it's possible that consistent use of an engine with a tight ring gap and under ideal conditions (no long duration loads and heat ala 1/2 mile & 1 mile pulls) will eventually and over some long length of time result in an absolutely perfect ring gap through end gap wear alone? Also assuming of course that the ring never locks and shears a land or scores the bore...

Nice collection of ring info here: http://garage.grumpysperformance.com...oull-need.509/

DFW1LE · 07-30-2017, 08:07 AM

If you re-gap stock rings, why not just go to drop in pistons, and if you go to drop in pistons why not strengthen the rods too? I guess it comes down to $ vs risk/reward.

LibertyHill · 07-30-2017, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFW1LE

If you re-gap stock rings, why not just go to drop in pistons, and if you go to drop in pistons why not strengthen the rods too? I guess it comes down to $ vs risk/reward.

Yes and if you go drop-in pistons you may as well try these pistons, rods, and rebalance the crank with some fresh bearings too.

I emailed Texas Speed for their opinion on them. Sorry for the thread-jack...

thescreensavers · 07-30-2017, 08:31 AM

Check attached

PRAY · 07-30-2017, 09:50 AM

I hate it when I take 10 minutes to type a response on this stupid phone and it doesn't post.

PRAY · 07-30-2017, 09:55 AM

To just cover my original post for now since this subject is going to get deep. According to Procharger they have done plenty of re-gaps. The stock rings can be as tight as .012" from their findings and are extremely inconsistant. They don't recommend WOT pulls longer than 12 seconds or so. I would go with something around .021-.022" depending on boost. From memory that is what I usually set up a 4.060" bore with a Wiseco. The stock short block should live a long life that way under normal levels of boost.

PRAY · 07-30-2017, 12:13 PM

Once ring gap is set I would be willing to bet is stays set. There would be nothing to increase it unless it was rubbing against the other side of the same ring which would mean they butted. If they butted then you broke a ring land.

The issue with the drop in pistons available is that they drop compression. That sounds good on the surface but with dropped compression comes lost tq and power. On a stock cam car maybe that isn't a big deal. On a PD car maybe it isn't a big deal. But with a cam or Centri car on a stock converter it is a big deal. I know, I know, RUN MORE BOOST. Problem is that more boost may get you more mph the car isn't going to ET or 60ft much better if any.

Add in the complications of our very limited fuel systems on this car. You need to run meth or get any real power out of these cars. If I am going to run meth then I am going to run as much compression as I can for my cam, stock or otherwise. This makes a much more fun and responsive car to drive under all other situations. Remember that a Centri blower relies on 0 vacuum and rpm to make boost. At peak tq you may only be half way to your peak boost level. Compression is your friend. As you drop compression you have to add boost to make up for it. More boost requires more fuel which is already an issue. So I end up with a lazy car that requires a lot of fuel.

You also have to consider head unit size and efficiency at this point as well. 90% of us are not going to go straight to the F series blowers. P1 and D1's will probably comprise most of our builds. The less we have to spin these blowers to make power the better. Less heat and less belt slip potentials. The cooler the air inters the intercooler the easier it is for the IC to do it's job. If you drop out the compression, add heads or cam, exhaust, etc. the more head unit and intercooler you are going to need.

Another deal with drop in pistons is that you should at least run a dingle berry hone down your cylinders for a fresh mating surface for the new rings. Your stock rings are already seated well. So just re-gap them and ensure they get back in the cylinder they came from.

I feel that at most of the power levels 90% of us are going to attain or could attain the stock pistons, rods, crank are more than adequate with proper ring end gap and tuning.

If doing pistons then why not rods? If I am doing that and looking at rebalancing then why wouldn't I just put a stroker kit in there. See how this logic builds. If doing all of that then I will need a head unit to support it and the fuel system. No I am 20K into a project when I just wanted my stock motor to live longer. Re-gapping your rings is free.

wnta1ss · 07-30-2017, 12:42 PM

Actually Vengeance Racing says that their drop-in pistons (Wisecos I believe) are made to stock LT1 compression ratio.

PRAY · 07-30-2017, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnta1ss

Actually Vengeance Racing says that their drop-in pistons (Wisecos I believe) are made to stock LT1 compression ratio.

I hope that's true. But from the guys I know that dropped in pistons that wasn't the fact. I have no idea which brand they used.

LibertyHill · 07-30-2017, 01:46 PM

Such great info again thanks so much! I'm thinking more along the lines of bullet-proofing this motor along with a refresh at some point in time, or assembling a long block to eventually replace this one. I can't get past not trusting it to safely deliver what it capable of and it takes a lot of fun out of owning the car. Probably good for my license though.

Has anyone heard of excessive skirt wear on the 416s resulting in piston slap? I read somewhere the longer stroke exposes too much skirt beyond the sleeve at the bottom. Any opinions on the assymetrical JEs? They really seem to make good sense but maybe not in a 416.

Seems like soooooooo much work to simply regap the piston rings. What would be the labor time on that job??

PRAY · 07-30-2017, 02:48 PM

With a 4" stroke you should be fine if the cylinder liners are the same length as the LS3.

Piece of mind is a good thing.

I just glanced at the link you posted. I am a huge fan of Wiseco and use Diamond in one application.

The labor doesn't bother me depending on when you do it. General consensus seems to be that pulling the motor is the easiest way to do a cam in this car. If you are swapping the TC for the cam swap then you are litterally 15 minutes away from having the pistons out to. So may as well while you are there. I guess you could do it in the car as well if you wanted.

Goohead · 07-31-2017, 08:35 PM

.022-.024" is good for top and 2nd

Piston slap is usually due to wall clearance or sometimes hard to avoid during cold starts if using something like 2618 alloy pistons and running loose tolerances.

2nd for wiseco good products good price, used them exclusively when I used to build 2jz

By the time you taken everything out, if a piston/rod set was 1.2kish might be worth it. Depends on if your time or money is more valuable.

DFW1LE · 08-01-2017, 07:25 AM

Do drop-in pistons come gapped correctly from Wiseco or do those also need to be filed down to a safer gap?

07-30-2017, 07:24 AM	#1
PRAY Drives: 2016 2SS Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Sanford NC Posts: 2,766	Rod bolt torque after piston swap or ring regap? For you guys that have either regapped your rings or done drop in pistons for boost, what did you torque your rod bolts to? I am guessing that the rod bolts are like any other GM bolt and are TTY and shouldn't be reused. Are there aftermarket versions and if so, do the rods need to be resized? I am trying to get all my ducks in a row before I put the blower on either way later this year or early next year. Going for 9's H/C first. __________________ 2016 2SS. H/C SBE 1.37 60ft, 6.36@109.49, 9.97@136+. Nuff Said.

07-30-2017, 07:46 AM	#2
LibertyHill Drives: 16 2SS 6MT NPP MRC / 15 K1300S Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: NW of Austin Posts: 1,034	Owners have regapped their rings? What have they found the gaps to be before regapping and what are they increasing the gaps to with FI?? Do you think it's possible that consistent use of an engine with a tight ring gap and under ideal conditions (no long duration loads and heat ala 1/2 mile & 1 mile pulls) will eventually and over some long length of time result in an absolutely perfect ring gap through end gap wear alone? Also assuming of course that the ring never locks and shears a land or scores the bore... Nice collection of ring info here: http://garage.grumpysperformance.com...oull-need.509/ __________________ Rohana RFX-5 10/11, M/T 275/305, Eibachs, Hellwigs, Hurst SS, DMS LT4 SC 596HP/589TQ, DMS Low-side, Kooks 2LTs, MBRP Race, Rotofab, MMS CC Last edited by LibertyHill; 07-30-2017 at 08:05 AM.

07-30-2017, 09:50 AM	#6
PRAY Drives: 2016 2SS Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Sanford NC Posts: 2,766	I hate it when I take 10 minutes to type a response on this stupid phone and it doesn't post. __________________ 2016 2SS. H/C SBE 1.37 60ft, 6.36@109.49, 9.97@136+. Nuff Said.

07-30-2017, 09:55 AM	#7
PRAY Drives: 2016 2SS Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Sanford NC Posts: 2,766	To just cover my original post for now since this subject is going to get deep. According to Procharger they have done plenty of re-gaps. The stock rings can be as tight as .012" from their findings and are extremely inconsistant. They don't recommend WOT pulls longer than 12 seconds or so. I would go with something around .021-.022" depending on boost. From memory that is what I usually set up a 4.060" bore with a Wiseco. The stock short block should live a long life that way under normal levels of boost. __________________ 2016 2SS. H/C SBE 1.37 60ft, 6.36@109.49, 9.97@136+. Nuff Said.

07-30-2017, 12:13 PM	#8
PRAY Drives: 2016 2SS Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Sanford NC Posts: 2,766	Once ring gap is set I would be willing to bet is stays set. There would be nothing to increase it unless it was rubbing against the other side of the same ring which would mean they butted. If they butted then you broke a ring land. The issue with the drop in pistons available is that they drop compression. That sounds good on the surface but with dropped compression comes lost tq and power. On a stock cam car maybe that isn't a big deal. On a PD car maybe it isn't a big deal. But with a cam or Centri car on a stock converter it is a big deal. I know, I know, RUN MORE BOOST. Problem is that more boost may get you more mph the car isn't going to ET or 60ft much better if any. Add in the complications of our very limited fuel systems on this car. You need to run meth or get any real power out of these cars. If I am going to run meth then I am going to run as much compression as I can for my cam, stock or otherwise. This makes a much more fun and responsive car to drive under all other situations. Remember that a Centri blower relies on 0 vacuum and rpm to make boost. At peak tq you may only be half way to your peak boost level. Compression is your friend. As you drop compression you have to add boost to make up for it. More boost requires more fuel which is already an issue. So I end up with a lazy car that requires a lot of fuel. You also have to consider head unit size and efficiency at this point as well. 90% of us are not going to go straight to the F series blowers. P1 and D1's will probably comprise most of our builds. The less we have to spin these blowers to make power the better. Less heat and less belt slip potentials. The cooler the air inters the intercooler the easier it is for the IC to do it's job. If you drop out the compression, add heads or cam, exhaust, etc. the more head unit and intercooler you are going to need. Another deal with drop in pistons is that you should at least run a dingle berry hone down your cylinders for a fresh mating surface for the new rings. Your stock rings are already seated well. So just re-gap them and ensure they get back in the cylinder they came from. I feel that at most of the power levels 90% of us are going to attain or could attain the stock pistons, rods, crank are more than adequate with proper ring end gap and tuning. If doing pistons then why not rods? If I am doing that and looking at rebalancing then why wouldn't I just put a stroker kit in there. See how this logic builds. If doing all of that then I will need a head unit to support it and the fuel system. No I am 20K into a project when I just wanted my stock motor to live longer. Re-gapping your rings is free. __________________ 2016 2SS. H/C SBE 1.37 60ft, 6.36@109.49, 9.97@136+. Nuff Said.

07-30-2017, 08:07 AM	#3
DFW1LE Drives: 2017 SS 1LE Mosiac Black Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,132	If you re-gap stock rings, why not just go to drop in pistons, and if you go to drop in pistons why not strengthen the rods too? I guess it comes down to $ vs risk/reward.

07-30-2017, 12:42 PM	#9
wnta1ss Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: NH Posts: 1,713	Actually Vengeance Racing says that their drop-in pistons (Wisecos I believe) are made to stock LT1 compression ratio.

07-30-2017, 01:46 PM	#11
LibertyHill Drives: 16 2SS 6MT NPP MRC / 15 K1300S Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: NW of Austin Posts: 1,034	Such great info again thanks so much! I'm thinking more along the lines of bullet-proofing this motor along with a refresh at some point in time, or assembling a long block to eventually replace this one. I can't get past not trusting it to safely deliver what it capable of and it takes a lot of fun out of owning the car. Probably good for my license though. Has anyone heard of excessive skirt wear on the 416s resulting in piston slap? I read somewhere the longer stroke exposes too much skirt beyond the sleeve at the bottom. Any opinions on the assymetrical JEs? They really seem to make good sense but maybe not in a 416. Seems like soooooooo much work to simply regap the piston rings. What would be the labor time on that job?? __________________ Rohana RFX-5 10/11, M/T 275/305, Eibachs, Hellwigs, Hurst SS, DMS LT4 SC 596HP/589TQ, DMS Low-side, Kooks 2LTs, MBRP Race, Rotofab, MMS CC

07-30-2017, 02:48 PM	#12
PRAY Drives: 2016 2SS Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Sanford NC Posts: 2,766	With a 4" stroke you should be fine if the cylinder liners are the same length as the LS3. Piece of mind is a good thing. I just glanced at the link you posted. I am a huge fan of Wiseco and use Diamond in one application. The labor doesn't bother me depending on when you do it. General consensus seems to be that pulling the motor is the easiest way to do a cam in this car. If you are swapping the TC for the cam swap then you are litterally 15 minutes away from having the pistons out to. So may as well while you are there. I guess you could do it in the car as well if you wanted. __________________ 2016 2SS. H/C SBE 1.37 60ft, 6.36@109.49, 9.97@136+. Nuff Said.

07-31-2017, 08:35 PM	#13
Goohead Horsepower whisperer Drives: Camaro Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: MO Posts: 185	.022-.024" is good for top and 2nd Piston slap is usually due to wall clearance or sometimes hard to avoid during cold starts if using something like 2618 alloy pistons and running loose tolerances. 2nd for wiseco good products good price, used them exclusively when I used to build 2jz By the time you taken everything out, if a piston/rod set was 1.2kish might be worth it. Depends on if your time or money is more valuable.

08-01-2017, 07:25 AM	#14
DFW1LE Drives: 2017 SS 1LE Mosiac Black Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,132	Do drop-in pistons come gapped correctly from Wiseco or do those also need to be filed down to a safer gap?

User Name		Remember Me?
Password