Clutch assist spring fail...revisited with extras

[frankwjr]

So now having owned this car for approx 6 mo. I have had ample time to research and learn from all the info contained here on C5...thank-you!

Now for the post..I have had a revelation of sorts discovered via some older posts but think this needs a bit more tech discussion...

A lot of Gen 5 M6 owners and previous vette owners too have removed the clutch assist spring with extremely positive results and I am adding my name to that list! all I can say I wow! what a diff....after having driven now for over 38 yrs(OMFG!) every conceivable type of vehicle known to man(O.K. maybe 99% LOL) this clutch was extremely disconnected and slow responding,,,and now I know why...GM engineered this clutch "feel" to appease the weak kneed "wanna be drivers/owners" of these cars, not for a "REAL" driver...limit the amount of inevitable bitchin about how "stiff" the freakin clutch is IMHO....solution? the stupid spring that gives you the over center feel and I believe is directly responsible to the whole "stuck" clutch prob where the clutch sticks to the floor.....

I posit that this spring directly counteracts the clutch actuator spring during high rpm shifts..why? without the spring the clutch actuator spring has sufficient force to disengage after the shift and force the hydraulic fluid column back up the hose and push the pedal back.....the assist spring in the fully depressed position is actually helping to hold the pedal DOWN!!!! so the two springs counteract each other and then with the addition of a high rpm shift the centrifugal force within the clutch assm. adds enough "suction" within the hydraulic column to hold the pedal.....whew...

Plenty of holes in this but hopefully opens broader discussion...

Personally the car not only shifts more predictably but IMHO seems to engage more firmly...and no discernible additional clutch effort either...

So M6 owners if you have not already tried this here is another option..

And there is NO safety issue with this based on my analysis but if anyone has PROOF of otherwise PLEASE share...peace out....

BTW - The Lingenfelter spring kit is proof, all their spring does is band-aid GM's design...for $70...

[olblue75]

Do you have pictures/DIY instructions

[frankwjr]

This is what the spring looks like, just use a pair of long needle nose pliers and unhook the two ends "ears" from the bracket on either side of the clutch pedal arm, the spring then just rotated down and pulled out....easy peasy...and like above the clutch action is now nice and linear..no over center feeling...good luck..

[camguynj]

For the broader discussion... see posts 6&7 on this Vette forum about the dual role the assist springs plays and GM bulletin on not removing it and denial of warranty if removed. Assuming it's also applicable to the Camaro spring ?
http://www.z06vette.com/forums/f62/a...spring-115662/

Here's an excerpt

One purpose of the over center spring is to return the clutch pedal to the very top of the stroke to expose the compensation port. The clutch master cylinder has a compensation port that is positioned within 1 MM of the top of the stroke. The compensation port allows internal pressure in the clutch hydraulic system to be exhausted into the master cylinder and also provides for system refill as the clutch disc wears. Removing or disconnecting the spring may allow the clutch pedal to hang at rest position with the piston short of the compensation port. If the internal pressure is not exhausted the CSC may get stroked too far and a clutch hydraulic system failure may result.

The second purpose of the spring is to provide for the designed clutch pedal feel
(ie. make it easier to hold down in stop/go traffic)

[frankwjr]

Pffttt...lol call BS only because I always push clutch down completely...lulz GM thinks peeps need help...like I said I was lookin at the tech side of it....can't shift get an auto....peace out..


and lookin at the freakin date on yer forum u quoted...times change...

[camguynj]

Originally Posted by frankwjr

Pffttt...lol call BS only because I always push clutch down completely...lulz GM thinks peeps need help...like I said I was lookin at the tech side of it....can't shift get an auto....peace out..


and lookin at the freakin date on yer forum u quoted...times change...

Thought you wanted a broader discussion! That article is pretty technical. Yea I know it's a few years old that's why I said I assume it applies to a Camaro ? Would like hear if anyone knows if it's still the same design and the same on both Vettes & Camaros?

[frankwjr]

True but your reply had a negative bend to it unless I read it incorrectly? I am attempting to determine if GM in their effort to make the clutch "easier" to use and "help/assist" drivers with the clutch actually inadvertently caused the clutch to not perform properly in a true high rpm shift environment, rather they "dumb" it down for the masses...and now having continued to drive the car with the spring removed am convinced of this...give it a shot..you have nothing to lose and can always pop the spring right back in...sorry did not mean to be harsh...peace out...

[camguynj]

Originally Posted by frankwjr

True but your reply had a negative bend to it unless I read it incorrectly? I am attempting to determine if GM in their effort to make the clutch "easier" to use and "help/assist" drivers with the clutch actually inadvertently caused the clutch to not perform properly in a true high rpm shift environment, rather they "dumb" it down for the masses...and now having continued to drive the car with the spring removed am convinced of this...give it a shot..you have nothing to lose and can always pop the spring right back in...sorry did not mean to be harsh...peace out...

I was only attempting to make people aware by highlighting a potential downside of removing the spring in the event that the master cylinder design is still the same and that it applies not only Vettes but also to 5th gens. I think it does but that's just a hunch.

I have no doubt removing the spring will provide a linear feel as well as to improve high rpm shifts.

[acammer]

Frankwjr - now that you've had the spring out for several months can you comment on any ill effects you've noticed. The "over-center" feel of the clutch pedal is really irritating in this car, and I'm tempted to remove the spring. I do hesitate though, as there are some reasoned arguments for it's presence.

Either way, thanks for the good reading materials on this!

[frankwjr]

100%...went to the drag strip finally 2 weekends ago and other than driver error, I was able to shift at 7k no prob....(prob need to shift at 6500 or so but that's another discussion).

Once i figure out the dig on these cars I believe I will get into the low 12's easy...on street tires....

BTW - brake/clutch fluid plays a big part too and until I did a 4 corner brake bleed my clutch drain and fill always came back dirty after a couple of days...now after the brake bleed my clutch fluid has YET to turn dirty....weird...

[acammer]

Originally Posted by frankwjr

100%...went to the drag strip finally 2 weekends ago and other than driver error, I was able to shift at 7k no prob....(prob need to shift at 6500 or so but that's another discussion).

Once i figure out the dig on these cars I believe I will get into the low 12's easy...on street tires....

BTW - brake/clutch fluid plays a big part too and until I did a 4 corner brake bleed my clutch drain and fill always came back dirty after a couple of days...now after the brake bleed my clutch fluid has YET to turn dirty....weird...

I'm putting in an Ideal Garage clutch master cylinder this week to alleviate the high rpm grind that plagues some of these cars - that comes with a remote reservoir. That should eliminate one area of issue. I'm considering removing the OE spring and going with a more traditional return spring to get rid of that over-center feel, but retain a full return on the pedal to make sure that compensation port gets opened every shift.

[acammer]

Here is some telling video that shows how the pedal behaves without the hydraulic system connected to the pedal. You can see how that pedal springs to the floor once moved off the top of the throw. Says a lot about the strange feel this thing has. My springs coming out.