[V6CamaroRS]

Ok, quick disclaimer: Not a Mustang hater here. While its not the car for me, I find myself giving Mustang owners thumbs up and actually appreciate Mustangs more now that I have a Camaro 5.

That being said I fully expect the new Camaro to wipe the floor with the Mustang on a model for model basis. A bold claim, so let me give you my reasoning.

What it comes down to for me is that the Camaro 5 was a big, heavy, unwieldy car that couldn't compete in a drag with the Mustang. Even around a track course the early Camaro 5s tended to lose pretty handily to the Mustangs. This was done on purpose because the Camaro 5 was sold on its looks first. (Damn good looks that they are!)

This "form over function" approach didn't sit well with the engineers. They immediately reached into their toolbox and started trying to find ways to have their cake and eat it too. Soon they were delivering power monsters like the ZL1 and tracks monsters like the z/28 and 1LE. Reviewer after reviewer began commenting with surprise (and sometimes utter shock!) at how good of a car the Camaro had become. Even more shocking was that Chevy was accomplishing these feats at reasonable prices.

The engineers were in their top form!

The engineers are carrying this mindset into the 6th gen. They're still fighting for every last scrap of power and performance. With a new platform, aero, and materials they're going to exceed that goal by an unexpectedly wide margin. The sixth gem will perform significantly beyond expectations and leave the Mustang in the dust. Just like the Vette unexpectedly challenged the best of European performance.

Eventually the market will find a balance and the 'Stang and Camaro will be close rivals again. But for the next few years we'll get to enjoy the fruits of a powerful underdog coming from behind.

That's my 2 cents worth based on my own engineering experience. I think the Chevy engineers have been incentivized enough to "find" a lot performance still left of the table. They've gone through all the paradigm shifts needed to rebalance the engineering formula to get more of the results we want and less of the antiquated thinking that was once predominant because the technology wasn't there yet. (Think DI, independent rear, 8 speed auto, lighter frame designs based on computer models, ground up aero rethink, new cooling approaches, better brakes, MRC, etc., etc., etc.)

[Fenderaddict2]

Originally Posted by V6CamaroRS

Ok, quick disclaimer: Not a Mustang hater here. While its not the car for me, I find myself giving Mustang owners thumbs up and actually appreciate Mustangs more now that I have a Camaro 5.

That being said I fully expect the new Camaro to wipe the floor with the Mustang on a model for model basis. A bold claim, so let me give you my reasoning.

What it comes down to for me is that the Camaro 5 was a big, heavy, unwieldy car that couldn't compete in a drag with the Mustang. Even around a track course the early Camaro 5s tended to lose pretty handily to the Mustangs. This was done on purpose because the Camaro 5 was sold on its looks first. (Damn good looks that they are!)

This "form over function" approach didn't sit well with the engineers. They immediately reached into their toolbox and started trying to find ways to have their cake and eat it too. Soon they were delivering power monsters like the ZL1 and tracks monsters like the z/28 and 1LE. Reviewer after reviewer began commenting with surprise (and sometimes utter shock!) at how good of a car the Camaro had become. Even more shocking was that Chevy was accomplishing these feats at reasonable prices.

The engineers were in their top form!

The engineers are carrying this mindset into the 6th gen. They're still fighting for every last scrap of power and performance. With a new platform, aero, and materials they're going to exceed that goal by an unexpectedly wide margin. The sixth gem will perform significantly beyond expectations and leave the Mustang in the dust. Just like the Vette unexpectedly challenged the best of European performance.

Eventually the market will find a balance and the 'Stang and Camaro will be close rivals again. But for the next few years we'll get to enjoy the fruits of a powerful underdog coming from behind.

That's my 2 cents worth based on my own engineering experience. I think the Chevy engineers have been incentivized enough to "find" a lot performance still left of the table. They've gone through all the paradigm shifts needed to rebalance the engineering formula to get more of the results we want and less of the antiquated thinking that was once predominant because the technology wasn't there yet. (Think DI, independent rear, 8 speed auto, lighter frame designs based on computer models, ground up aero rethink, new cooling approaches, better brakes, MRC, etc., etc., etc.)

It may well do, but unlike the current car which has looks I have lusted after from the beginning "(Damn good looks that they are!)" when they couldn't deliver the visually promised performance, the new cars simply doesn't, to quote James May, give me the fizz. I was at the reveal on Belle Isle, and I'm sorry but the look was similar to the current car, but as if drawn by a blind man having the car described to him. So disappointed as I was excited about a lighter Camaro. Numbers are great, and feel is better...but I'm an Art Director by trade and as a result a very shallow man. Camaro has lost me this round, but for now I get the pleasure of deciding if my next car is a Corvette, Porsche, GT350... or perhaps even a used Z/28. Next year will reveal the answer.

No dig on the Camaro though, if the looks are your cup of tea (the blue was stunning), this is a better all around car than the current model, for sure.

[Bongos2U]

Originally Posted by Fenderaddict2

It may well do, but unlike the current car which has looks I have lusted after from the beginning "(Damn good looks that they are!)" when they couldn't deliver the visually promised performance, the new cars simply doesn't, to quote James May, give me the fizz. I was at the reveal on Belle Isle, and I'm sorry but the look was similar to the current car, but as if drawn by a blind man having the car described to him. So disappointed as I was excited about a lighter Camaro. Numbers are great, and feel is better...but I'm an Art Director by trade and as a result a very shallow man. Camaro has lost me this round, but for now I get the pleasure of deciding if my next car is a Corvette, Porsche, GT350... or perhaps even a used Z/28. Next year will reveal the answer.

Now dig on the Camaro though, if the looks are your cup of tea (the blue was stunning), this is a better all around car than the current model, for sure.

Kind of a schizophrenic response. You say you lusted after the 5th gen, then disparage the new Camaro because it resembles the 5th gen? To paraphrase Tom Peters, he says this 6th gen. is the current car going on a diet and to the gym, and winds up with a physique that is more muscular and sinewy, instead of bloated and unwieldly (I embelished that last remark ).

To bring the current Mustang into the mix, I stated in another post that if compared to inantimate objects, the Mustang would be compared to a marshmallow...The new Camaro a switchblade.

Styling is subjective, but I'm getting a little tired of people who say they are in love with the 5th gen. looks, then freaked out because the 6th gen. has styling cues from the current model.

UPDATE : I just noticed the cars you drive...Pretty much explains everything you stated in your post.

[rayhawk]

I think the days of the Camaro crushing the Mustang, or vice versa, are gone. Both companies are taking cars seriously these days, and these models are important to them. I would argue the Mustang is much more important to Ford than the Camaro is to GM though. I agree that the 2016 SS Camaro should be a better performing vehicle than the 2016 Mustang GT, but GM will not yet have a competitor for the GT350. I would argue that the GT vs SS battle is more relevant to a larger audience, but as far as public opinion (read internet commenters), the lack of a GT350 competitor will be a big hole in the Camaro lineup.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by Fenderaddict2

It may well do, but unlike the current car which has looks I have lusted after from the beginning "(Damn good looks that they are!)" when they couldn't deliver the visually promised performance, the new cars simply doesn't, to quote James May, give me the fizz. I was at the reveal on Belle Isle, and I'm sorry but the look was similar to the current car, but as if drawn by a blind man having the car described to him. So disappointed as I was excited about a lighter Camaro. Numbers are great, and feel is better...but I'm an Art Director by trade and as a result a very shallow man. Camaro has lost me this round, but for now I get the pleasure of deciding if my next car is a Corvette, Porsche, GT350... or perhaps even a used Z/28. Next year will reveal the answer.

Now dig on the Camaro though, if the looks are your cup of tea (the blue was stunning), this is a better all around car than the current model, for sure.

I get what you're saying. I was one of the people hoping they didn't change it too much and ruin it so I'm ok with the new styling just being a sleeker 5th gen. I haven't seen it in person yet though. I'm hoping I don't hate it LOL.

[cwl011]

See for me the opposite has happened, I think the gen5 doesn't have the fizz for me. Even though the gen6 has similar characteristics of the gen5 I still think it is the best looking inside and out. Since I have a career in the technology I think they have done a fine job adding enough for my likings. If the gen6 didn't get me this excited I would be getting a left over gen5 but no matter how much I look at the deals I can't convince myself to get a left over gen5

[shaffe]

I agree that upon launch the 6th gen should easily post better performance # than the Mustang.

but what makes you think Ford will just let the mustang sit around and not improve? Ford was pretty quick to make changes/updates to the S197 even though it was on its way out. I expect them to have changes already up their sleeve for the 17 model

[V6CamaroRS]

Originally Posted by Fenderaddict2

It may well do, but unlike the current car which has looks I have lusted after from the beginning "(Damn good looks that they are!)" when they couldn't deliver the visually promised performance, the new cars simply doesn't, to quote James May, give me the fizz.

Physics is a cruel mistress. The sad part is that we'll probably never see another Camaro with looks quite that badass again. The circumstances of its creation were rather unique and unlikely to be repeated. That being said, the Camaro 6 is a damn good looking car in its own right. I expect some of the oddities in its design (e.g. Toilet bowl hood) to get rectified with small sight line changes over the next few model years.

Originally Posted by rayhawk

I think the days of the Camaro crushing the Mustang, or vice versa, are gone. Both companies are taking cars seriously these days, and these models are important to them. I would argue the Mustang is much more important to Ford than the Camaro is to GM though.

I can't disagree with the statement that both companies are taking the cars very seriously nor can I disagree with the Mustang being even more important to Ford. (Especially given that they have no direct 'Vette competitior.) My argument is that the lack of serious competition caused them to fall behind. While the Chevy engineers were trying to find every last ounce of performance, Ford already had a market leader that Chevy couldn't beat. Even with Chevy "winning" the track, the Mustang often outperforms on its peak lap.

Then the brake fade and the trans heats up and the suspension takes a pounding....

The Mustang refresh is a sign that Ford is beginning to respond in earnest. Unfortunately for Ford, the Chevy engineers have a head start and are defining what it means to be a modern performance car with muscle. We can see this in how Ford struggled with their weight targets just like Chevy did when the Cam5 was produced. Yet Chevy made it look almost effortless to hit the weight targets on the Cam6.

That's how I know they've got some incredible stuff coming. It's an engineer's job to make things that are stupendously hard look easy. And Chevy is there right now.

I agree that the 2016 SS Camaro should be a better performing vehicle than the 2016 Mustang GT, but GM will not yet have a competitor for the GT350. I would argue that the GT vs SS battle is more relevant to a larger audience, but as far as public opinion (read internet commenters), the lack of a GT350 competitor will be a big hole in the Camaro lineup.

Sure. The GT350 and GT350R will have their "year to run wild". And then Chevy will respond with their competitor that will almost certainly make the GT350 guys feel inadequate. Then we'll be off to the GT500 followed by Chevy's response to that. The consumers that buy these cars (and are shopping between them instead of shopping on brand loyalty) will know enough to wait until they can choose between them.

Things I'm a bit curious about with the GT350 are: will the brakes be sufficient, will the brake fade be corrected, and will the cooling systems be improved? If these don't get fixed the Camaro 6 SS is going to make this thing look a bit bad, which would not be a win for Ford.

In terms of Chevy's answer, I'm really curious to see what their response will hold. It's tempting to say that Chevy blew their load already. But good ideas have a way of begetting more good ideas. Chevy may surprise us once again!

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by Bongos2U

...

UPDATE : I just noticed the cars you drive...Pretty much explains everything you stated in your post.

Whoa whoa whoa...Fender has been a member of this site for a long while and contributes nicely. He always states his opinions fair, and doesn't bash, and I believe genuinely likes the Camaro. But he also likes other cars too? (wow, what the heck...we CAN like more than one brand??? Who'd of thunk it???)

I respect him, and you judged too soon.

Now back to the topic at hand.

I too, feel the 2016 Camaro will trounce the 2016 Mustang in just about every way, from a performance stand-point. It also seems to offer more content, (interior features) for those that crave that sort of thing.

It will weigh the same, or maybe slightly less, with more torque, more HP, and in the auto, has more gears (auto-equipped Camaro is going to really put the distance on the Mustang in the 1/4 in my mind). As for handling,...its Alpha. Nuff said. It will also offer MRC....which we all know is proven to be fantastic. It will outhandle GTPP Mustang.

Looks are subjective, but for me, while I think the Mustang is nice looking, and can be pretty sweet when modded correctly....it doesn't give me the "fizz" while the Camaro does. I also very much like the interior, so there's that.

But we can expect Ford to answer back, and they will.

[Jeffro19]

I agree the new camaro will edge out the mustang but not by a huge margin. Yes it will beat it 0-60 and 1/4 mile but it still will be close and a drivers race. Mustang I'm sure won't let that last and bring some updates in 2017

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by Jeffro19

I agree the new camaro will edge out the mustang but not by a huge margin. Yes it will beat it 0-60 and 1/4 mile but it still will be close and a drivers race. Mustang I'm sure won't let that last and bring some updates in 2017

One thing I tend to ponder, is that the level of performance of these cars really is staggering compared to where we were at not long ago.

So if one car leapfrogs the other by a few 10ths in the 1/4, and is faster on the track, if not even a huge amount, is a real success.

But in my opinion, I think the SS 8 -speed will be capable of common mid 12s with very low 12 second hero runs. Hell...might even see an 11.9x stock?? Corvette with the same engine and transmission/gear ratio is seeing deep 11s. Camaro may never get there stock, but again, I think low 12s stock is in the bag. That's quiet a jump over the 5th gen in my opinion.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Fenderaddict2

It may well do, but unlike the current car which has looks I have lusted after from the beginning "(Damn good looks that they are!)" when they couldn't deliver the visually promised performance, the new cars simply doesn't, to quote James May, give me the fizz. I was at the reveal on Belle Isle, and I'm sorry but the look was similar to the current car, but as if drawn by a blind man having the car described to him. So disappointed as I was excited about a lighter Camaro. Numbers are great, and feel is better...but I'm an Art Director by trade and as a result a very shallow man. Camaro has lost me this round, but for now I get the pleasure of deciding if my next car is a Corvette, Porsche, GT350... or perhaps even a used Z/28. Next year will reveal the answer.

Now dig on the Camaro though, if the looks are your cup of tea (the blue was stunning), this is a better all around car than the current model, for sure.

I understand how you feel and how your background/interests affect your perception of the car. To me, the car is the sum of its parts and not the sheet metal. I look at the 5th gen and I see a Camaro. It definitely has pieces of the design I do not like but on the whole the car looks good. But it has a "2nd class" interior (at this time) and lacks many of the features even economy cars have today. The interior alone is the reason I would not pick up currently if I could.

The 6th gen looks like a Camaro, has a first rate interior, and offers pretty much all the features one could ask for in a car under $50k, hell it comes better equipped (in the 2SS) than my '14 328i. Couple that with the increased performance over the 5th gen (which was already great) and the car is a homerun. Sure I don't care for some of the design elements and pieces (just like I didn't for the 5th) but as a total package...it is better in every respect.

I am in IT, so I have different views and background than you and why I see things differently.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by V6CamaroRS

I can't disagree with the statement that both companies are taking the cars very seriously nor can I disagree with the Mustang being even more important to Ford. (Especially given that they have no direct 'Vette competitior.) My argument is that the lack of serious competition caused them to fall behind. While the Chevy engineers were trying to find every last ounce of performance, Ford already had a market leader that Chevy couldn't beat. Even with Chevy "winning" the track, the Mustang often outperforms on its peak lap.

Then the brake fade and the trans heats up and the suspension takes a pounding....

The Mustang refresh is a sign that Ford is beginning to respond in earnest. Unfortunately for Ford, the Chevy engineers have a head start and are defining what it means to be a modern performance car with muscle. We can see this in how Ford struggled with their weight targets just like Chevy did when the Cam5 was produced. Yet Chevy made it look almost effortless to hit the weight targets on the Cam6.

That's how I know they've got some incredible stuff coming. It's an engineer's job to make things that are stupendously hard look easy. And Chevy is there right now.



Sure. The GT350 and GT350R will have their "year to run wild". And then Chevy will respond with their competitor that will almost certainly make the GT350 guys feel inadequate. Then we'll be off to the GT500 followed by Chevy's response to that. The consumers that buy these cars (and are shopping between them instead of shopping on brand loyalty) will know enough to wait until they can choose between them.

Things I'm a bit curious about with the GT350 are: will the brakes be sufficient, will the brake fade be corrected, and will the cooling systems be improved? If these don't get fixed the Camaro 6 SS is going to make this thing look a bit bad, which would not be a win for Ford.

In terms of Chevy's answer, I'm really curious to see what their response will hold. It's tempting to say that Chevy blew their load already. But good ideas have a way of begetting more good ideas. Chevy may surprise us once again!

I wouldn't say Ford fell behind. They had the first redesign of the S197 in 2010 same year as the Camaro returned. The 5.0 and new V-6 werent ready yet but came out in 2011. The Mustang was outhandling the camaro in 2012 and 2013 with the Boss as well as having the advantage at the 1/4. Then the tides started to turn and Chevy really focused on the handling and unleashed the 1LE and ZL1 and eventually the Z/28. That to me seems like good back and forth.

I don't know if its really fair to try and guess what will happen with the 350 and 350R and its eventual Chevy competitor. We know nothing about how they will perform yet, so to say Chevy's answer will make it inadequate is a bold statement IMO.

Ford has been very quick to respond with the Mustang in the last 4 years. as has GM with the Camaro. I would be more willing to bet each company has their moments this generation, I don't think one or the other will completely leave the other in the dust.

[ChefBorOzzy]

Cars will perform pretty much about the same. I'd say the Camaro will be a bit faster in a straight line. GM is pretty good about making excellent handling vehicles so we'll see what they do with some type of performance package.

Buy what you like and enjoy it is all I can say.