[minn19]

Originally Posted by hawk02

I love how everyone says GM should just slapped the LT5 into the ZL1 for its swan song. But let's look at it realistically.

First off, The cost and time to re-certify the LT5 in the Alpha chassis would be enormous. No doubt the engine compartment would need modification, the suspension retuned to handle the additional horsepower, and the transmission beefed up just to mention a few. This would require hours of testing and re-engineering.

Secondly, how many people realistically would be willing to pay $100K for a Camaro? Only 3,434 ZL1s were manufactured in 2019 before the pandemic. If we assume GM averaged 3000 ZL1s a year over the six model years that's roughly 18,000 ZL1 owners out there. You all say you'd trade in your current ZL1 for an LT5 ZL1 in a heart beat but would you really? I bet it would be less than 10%.

GM produced less than 3000 C7 ZR1s. I'm betting Camaro ZL1 LT5 sales wouldn't even come close to that.

GM is in the business to make money for its shareholders. GM knows its market very well. And the market just isn't there to justify the cost to put the LT5 in the Camaro ZL1 even though our heart says we'd love to see it.

Also agree with this.

Originally Posted by ZX-10R

The market is there for an LT5 Camaro under $80k, it would sell like crazy - and I don't think the swap would be all that complicated - the A10 can handle the power. The real reason it won't happen is the EV transition

That's the blower these cars should have come with in the first place

Somewhat agreed, I still don’t think the market for a LT5 Camaro is much different than the market for a LT4 Camaro. This thread kind of proves that, people bought LT4 equipped Camaros anyway over the LT5 Vette’s for the reasons stated. Same with me.

Originally Posted by Blackdevil77

If they just stuck an LT5 in the ZL1 in the first place, it probably would of sold a lot more, even if it was more expensive. Ford had no problem giving the GT500 more power than the Ford GT, and the GT500 is the most sought after of the 3 (Hellcat, ZL1 being the other two).

I know it’s not gonna happen, I know what it would or required to make it happen. I’m just saying I don’t agree with GMs decision to always try and keep the top tier Camaro in the top dog Corvettes shadow. But what do I know, I’m just some ass hole on a forum.

I don’t think more HP is going to or would raise the dismal sales of the Camaro. For one GM doesn’t market them and they don’t seem to have the cult/fanboy base that Dodge or Ford does. People are also very turned off by the poor sight lines and so so interior (not that Ford or Dodges are much better) in the Camaros amongst other reasons. The only reason they are in higher demand now is the low inventory rate.

I guess I’m speaking for some of the few of us that are apparently satisfied with 650/650 four a 4 seat 99% street driven car. I had a chance at a base GT500 for just over sticker a couple of months ago. I turned it down for my ZL1. I really don’t know what I’d do with an extra 100 plus HP as I rarely have the chance to go WOT as it is in the ZL1. I almost went for a SS 1LE but love the look and other things about the ZL1 more. I suspect most are usage cases like mine.

[arpad_m]

I agree with ZX-10R on this one. There would be a cost of course, but then again, developing the LT5 itself must have cost hundreds or millions, the Alpha platform several billions, it's not like these companies don't have the means to build even niche products (like exotic crate engines, for example), what they lack is the will.

[zxspeedspec]

Originally Posted by minn19

Somewhat agreed, I still don’t think the market for a LT5 Camaro is much different than the market for a LT4 Camaro. This thread kind of proves that, people bought LT4 equipped Camaros anyway over the LT5 Vette’s for the reasons stated. Same with me.

As someone who's had significant track experience with various C7s, this is where I disagree. The C7 Z06 is untrackable. Between overheating, heatsoaking, and shit chassis, it's a pretty looking piece of shit for $120k. The ZLE is everything the C7 Z06 should've been.

An LT5 Camaro would be priced around $100k which would still leave me in the market, but remember how hard it was for GM to sell the $72k Z/28 back in 2014?

Most people don't drive either hard enough to justify either, but as someone who tracks often and participates in other motorsports, the LT5 in the Alpha chassis would destroy any record times set by the C7 ZR1. GM is not going to allow that. They won't even acknowledge that the ZLE is faster than the Z06 and as someone that's driven both I can tell you the Alpha chassis is faster.

[Snowwolfe]

Originally Posted by CW3SF

I have owned multiple Vettes. I went ZL1 instead this time because there are just too many Vettes everywhere I look. I like having cars that have at least a little bit of uniqueness. I hardly ever see ZL1s on the road.

Same reason I bought my ZL1 in Feb 2020. Even though I sold it a few months ago I have only seen one other ZL1 on the street since buying mine.
Corvettes are everywhere.

[Snowwolfe]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

GM had specific goals for the LT4, and the small 1.74L, harder hitting, faster spinning blower met their OEM goals. They felt the LS9 in the C6 ZR1 didn't make enough low end torque, so they were able to fill in that low-end torque, lighten the engine, make the engine shorter in height, and make a few extra hp with the LT4 over the LS9. OEM goals met. I don't think they were that concerned about what the aftermarket could or couldn't do with the blower once it left the factory.



They couldn't have stuck the LT5 in the ZL1 "in the first place" because the LT5 didn't debut in the ZR1 until after the 6th gen ZL1 had been in production for a couple of years. Plus, they weren't going to put the halo of all halo GM engines (LT5) in a Camaro in 2017 and not the Z06. I don't blame them for saving room for a ZR1. There is a pecking order and the ZR1 is on top. Camaro has an advantage in that the good stuff from the Corvette trickles down. e.g. LT1, LT4, etc., which I'm thankful for. There's also the economy of scales also with sharing the engine blocks with the V8 trucks.

The ZL1 and top dog at the time C7 Z06 co-existed for a couple of years with the same power ratings, so they didn't really sand bag it alongside the Z06. And the ZL1 is currently the most powerful GM product (until the C8 Z06 comes out with an extra 20 hp), and tied for the 2nd most powerful of all time.

Wrong. The current CTV5 Blackwing has more HP than the ZL1.

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

GM had specific goals for the LT4, and the small 1.74L, harder hitting, faster spinning blower met their OEM goals. They felt the LS9 in the C6 ZR1 didn't make enough low end torque, so they were able to fill in that low-end torque, lighten the engine, make the engine shorter in height, and make a few extra hp with the LT4 over the LS9. OEM goals met. I don't think they were that concerned about what the aftermarket could or couldn't do with the blower once it left the factory.



They couldn't have stuck the LT5 in the ZL1 "in the first place" because the LT5 didn't debut in the ZR1 until after the 6th gen ZL1 had been in production for a couple of years. Plus, they weren't going to put the halo of all halo GM engines (LT5) in a Camaro in 2017 and not the Z06. I don't blame them for saving room for a ZR1. There is a pecking order and the ZR1 is on top. Camaro has an advantage in that the good stuff from the Corvette trickles down. e.g. LT1, LT4, etc., which I'm thankful for. There's also the economy of scales also with sharing the engine blocks with the V8 trucks.

The ZL1 and top dog at the time C7 Z06 co-existed for a couple of years with the same power ratings, so they didn't really sand bag it alongside the Z06. And the ZL1 is currently the most powerful GM product (until the C8 Z06 comes out with an extra 20 hp), and tied for the 2nd most powerful of all time.

I'm guessing you meant to say that the ZL1 is the most powerful Chevy product as the CT5 BW and now the GMC Hummer exist (even if some people scoff at 1000 electric HP, HP is HP IMO).

I agree completely with the rest. We have the most powerful Camaro ever made, and currently the highest HP rated Chevy product. And we aren't having to pay crazy amounts for that power.

On a side note, my neighbor with the C8 has inexplicably traded it in for an older model Z06. I guess he'd rather have the higher HP number over a car that can do more with less. In all fairness, he leaves his summer only tire outfitted cars out in frigid temperatures, so he's most likely the superficial type.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by zxspeedspec

As someone who's had significant track experience with various C7s, this is where I disagree. The C7 Z06 is untrackable. Between overheating, heatsoaking, and shit chassis, it's a pretty looking piece of shit for $120k. The ZLE is everything the C7 Z06 should've been.

An LT5 Camaro would be priced around $100k which would still leave me in the market, but remember how hard it was for GM to sell the $72k Z/28 back in 2014?

Most people don't drive either hard enough to justify either, but as someone who tracks often and participates in other motorsports, the LT5 in the Alpha chassis would destroy any record times set by the C7 ZR1. GM is not going to allow that. They won't even acknowledge that the ZLE is faster than the Z06 and as someone that's driven both I can tell you the Alpha chassis is faster.

I think you actually are agreeing with me. You and about 7 other people would buy a 100k Camaro IMO.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Snowwolfe

Wrong. The current CTV5 Blackwing has more HP than the ZL1.

Yeah, forgot about that one when I was writing. I guess my head was thinking “Chevy” but wrote GM.

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

I'm guessing you meant to say that the ZL1 is the most powerful Chevy product as the CT5 BW and now the GMC Hummer exist (even if some people scoff at 1000 electric HP, HP is HP IMO).

I agree completely with the rest. We have the most powerful Camaro ever made, and currently the highest HP rated Chevy product. And we aren't having to pay crazy amounts for that power.

On a side note, my neighbor with the C8 has inexplicably traded it in for an older model Z06. I guess he'd rather have the higher HP number over a car that can do more with less. In all fairness, he leaves his summer only tire outfitted cars out in frigid temperatures, so he's most likely the superficial type.

See above.

Originally Posted by minn19

I think you actually are agreeing with me. You and about 7 other people would buy a 100k Camaro IMO.

An LT5 ZL1 wouldn’t be $100k. It would be more like GT500 money (msrp). If Ford can do a 760 hp pony car for mid 70s msrp, then GM can as well.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

An LT5 ZL1 wouldn’t be $100k. It would be more like GT500 money (msrp). If Ford can do a 760 hp pony car for mid 70s msrp, then GM can as well.

Point me to one I/we can get for mid 70s. The best real world I could do was 85k ish on a new one and as I said I still went for the ZL1 at 72k MSRP. Used all seem to be that or more and nobody is budging. At least as of a month ago.

Even pre covid GT350s (non Rs) were 75k or more forever.

I was using his numbers.

Why would GM or any company do that for a money loss on a extremely low selling niche product? Regardless of shareholders etc etc.

Edit: I do agree if they had it ready to go when the ZL1 came out it would of made sense just to go with that. I do believe that would of poached some Vette sales though.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by minn19

Point me to one I/we can get for mid 70s. The best real world I could do was 85k ish on a new one and as I said I still went for the ZL1 at 72k MSRP. Used all seem to be that or more and nobody is budging. At least as of a month ago.

Even pre covid GT350s (non Rs) were 75k or more forever.

I was using his numbers.

Why would GM or any company do that for a money loss on a extremely low selling niche product? Regardless of shareholders etc etc.

Edit: I do agree if they had it ready to go when the ZL1 came out it would of made sense just to go with that. I do believe that would of poached some Vette sales though.

Obviously dealer markup puts them past msrp. But Ford’s msrp of a 760 hp pony car with a DCT is mid 70s. These competitors stay within a stone’s throw of each other. LT5 ZL1 might be a bit more expensive, but not $25k higher msrp than a GT500. A Hellcat Redeye starts at $77k for comparison.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Obviously dealer markup puts them past msrp. But Ford’s msrp of a 760 hp pony car with a DCT is mid 70s. These competitors stay within a stone’s throw of each other. LT5 ZL1 might be a bit more expensive, but not $25k higher msrp than a GT500. A Hellcat Redeye starts at $77k for comparison.

I do agree on MSRP, unfortunately reality in the car market sucks. I want a 170k MSRP 992 GT3. Speaking of pipe dreams.

[TXCSSU]

The tinfoil hat guy in me figures that GM, Ford, and Chrysler got together in a dark room and decided that one would do handling well, one would do top HP numbers well, and the other would split the difference. The cost of the federal government going after them for collusion would probably be cheaper than if they each tried to "one-up" each other over the course of their respective models. Pushing the envelope for an engine can get expensive and can lead to a lot of costly recalls if not done right. Considering I've got 650 HP at my disposal at 16.7 combined MPG, I'm perfectly fine with it. And, if I feel like I need more then I know that there are tuners that love massaging the LT4 for more power with some of them even giving you a decent little warranty on their work. We should really take the time to appreciate the LT4 as it is a dying breed. I would be perfectly ok if GM pulled the plug (I know bad ironic pun) on the ICE Camaro with the LT4 as the top dog so I can say that I owned the most powerful ICE Camaro that GM produced.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

The tinfoil hat guy in me figures that GM, Ford, and Chrysler got together in a dark room and decided that one would do handling well, one would do top HP numbers well, and the other would split the difference. The cost of the federal government going after them for collusion would probably be cheaper than if they each tried to "one-up" each other over the course of their respective models. Pushing the envelope for an engine can get expensive and can lead to a lot of costly recalls if not done right. Considering I've got 650 HP at my disposal at 16.7 combined MPG, I'm perfectly fine with it. And, if I feel like I need more then I know that there are tuners that love massaging the LT4 for more power with some of them even giving you a decent little warranty on their work. We should really take the time to appreciate the LT4 as it is a dying breed. I would be perfectly ok if GM pulled the plug (I know bad ironic pun) on the ICE Camaro with the LT4 as the top dog so I can say that I owned the most powerful ICE Camaro that GM produced.

As Savagegeese said in his review of the ZLE, it is an exercise in self control (at stock power levels) driving these cars on the street. I don’t blame anyone for adding power though, does sound like fun and it is pretty easy/relatively cheap to do with the LT4.

[HDRDTD]

FYI

LT4
https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-e...58e47e5c597791

LT5

https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-e...3955afed11ea90