[TrackClub]

Good mark up! What i like about flatter mu pads is that they dont fall off the cliff, plus provide better pedal modulation (for me anyway). That said, i have read Ferodo's email response posted on a blog somewhere (Bimmer i think) and from what i recall they said that HP1000 was "derived from a DS Performance family of pads". Not a direct quote, but that's what i recall. They refused to provide any tech stats for it.
Interestingly, Pagid products are similar to Ferodo's in torque curves, yet even their top guns hardly exceed 50 mu. Yet top shelf pro teams use them, like Corvette Racing. Bottom line, pads are a personal preference (even within pro driver teams). One thing we do know: top torque pads generate tons of heat and have a tendency of frying calipers (and whatever other components close to the heat source, incl tires for sure).
Several DTC70 users right on this forum have offered first hand experiences to this effect. And most recently a member complained about frequent ABS intervention with DS1.11 even with A7s. Thats something that Pagid warns about regarding their race pads and DOT slicks.
Long time ago, i had tried HPS on my Mustang and to my surprise the pads were completely gone after a single day! Metal on metal. So graphs notwithstanding there are other factors to consider. When i ran DSUNO with AP Racing brakes i had to rebuild calipers every season. Mind you, they were Sprint vs Enduro variety. But the car was 3000lb. To me, as long as a pad is driver friendly, lasts a decent number of track days, doesnt fry anything (my calipers are still like new) and doesnt fade: i am happy Lastly, anybody can post here that they "love" pad x or y, but without information as to how fast they are and how often they track their car and what the results are after a season, such info is at best inconclusive.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Good mark up! What i like about flatter mu pads is that they dont fall off the cliff, plus provide better pedal modulation (for me anyway).

I doubt it's just you. My money is on the ABS calibration being happier with flatter mu curves as well. Or at the very least, on your ability to keep the pads operating within the flat-mu region.


I'm not the least bit surprised to hear of your experience with HPS pads on a Mustang. As far as I'm concerned, they're the poster-boy for why aftermarket pads with 'street' as part of their name don't belong on the track past at most a consciously cautiously driven introductory event. I wasn't even happy with their bite (mu) even in street driving, no better than OE Ford and maybe not as good.


Norm

[Homeless Junkie]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

You can figure out your season's budget based on the above info, but: as long as you continue to over drive the car, which you do rather severly at times, including exceeding Stabilitrak limits - you will be wearing out tires faster than necessary (while going slower than their potential).

Cheers!

Can you explain this a little in depth please? I notice on video when I get sloppy towards the end of the day the SS shows up more. I'm very happy with my tire's life but would like to know what I should look out for in prep for turning these things off.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Homeless Junkie

Can you explain this a little in depth please? I notice on video when I get sloppy towards the end of the day the SS shows up more. I'm very happy with my tire's life but would like to know what I should look out for in prep for turning these things off.

What PTM mode are you running?

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I doubt it's just you. My money is on the ABS calibration being happier with flatter mu curves as well. Or at the very least, on your ability to keep the pads operating within the flat-mu region.


I'm not the least bit surprised to hear of your experience with HPS pads on a Mustang. As far as I'm concerned, they're the poster-boy for why aftermarket pads with 'street' as part of their name don't belong on the track past at most a consciously cautiously driven introductory event. I wasn't even happy with their bite (mu) even in street driving, no better than OE Ford and maybe not as good.


Norm

Haha you're right Norm! Somebody talked me into HPS pads as "track worthy", yet they are pure street only for damn sure. Unfortunately, back then there was no such forum as ours and i had no idea where to search for info.
Live and learn as they say I ended up switching to HP+ which was a good pad for my experience level.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Good mark up! What i like about flatter mu pads is that they dont fall off the cliff, plus provide better pedal modulation (for me anyway). That said, i have read Ferodo's email response posted on a blog somewhere (Bimmer i think) and from what i recall they said that HP1000 was "derived from a DS Performance family of pads". Not a direct quote, but that's what i recall. They refused to provide any tech stats for it.
Interestingly, Pagid products are similar to Ferodo's in torque curves, yet even their top guns hardly exceed 50 mu. Yet top shelf pro teams use them, like Corvette Racing...

Thing is, without knowing how Hawk and Ferodo test, the exact mu (coefficient of friction) is not 100% comparable. I put the marks on there more for thought.

Ryephile’s research on HP1000/1
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=64

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I doubt it's just you. My money is on the ABS calibration being happier with flatter mu curves as well. Or at the very least, on your ability to keep the pads operating within the flat-mu region.


I'm not the least bit surprised to hear of your experience with HPS pads on a Mustang. As far as I'm concerned, they're the poster-boy for why aftermarket pads with 'street' as part of their name don't belong on the track past at most a consciously cautiously driven introductory event. I wasn't even happy with their bite (mu) even in street driving, no better than OE Ford and maybe not as good.


Norm

My thinking is that, on street tires and non-motorsports ABS, a less aggressive [mu] and more consistent (less peaky).

[TrackClub]

MOUNTAIN, thanks for posting Ryephile's thread. That was indeed the email. Per the chart, HP1000 and DS2500 are virtually identical, with the former offering a bit higher mu in colder temps. The key here is their comment about the next step being full race compounds.

Understanding that their methodologies can indeed differ, the graphs are still proly decent as guidelines regarding basic pad capabilities and how long they can go heat wise. And of course offering good comparisons within each family. Plus your mark up focuses on the key aspects (even if for pondering purposes).

Since my car is dual duty, even tho with very heavy track focus, dual pads duty are my preference. I happen to think that our stock pad excels at it: i can brake as deep as i normally wish, trail brake easily, no fade to speak of, gentle on rotors, low heat generation, decent longevity, zero noise and good price. IMO it is very similar to XP10 in performance, albeit the latter's longevity wasn't as good on my car.

If i could find a pad with similar characteristics and better longevity for the same (or lower) price - id try it.
But sure as heck i am not gonna put a race pad on a street car, deal with fried components and/or start spending coin on upgrading them just to be able to slow her down a bit faster (which doesnt automatically translate into faster laps all by itself). To be honest, i am not sure what PROBLEM i would be solving by going to more aggressive pads!

Bottom line, this nut behind the wheel still has room for improvement and doing so costs me zero incremental $$$

[Mountain]

Agreed, exactly, TrackClub. Though, Im strongly considering trying some DS2500’s. I really like the OEM pads for your same reasons. If the DS2500 is the same, just with a touch more grab, I’m curious if that’ll be my sweet spot, as my one ding on the stock pads is a touch too soft in feel/grab or initial application decel. I don’t need new front pads now, but next season I think I’ll give them a try. For some, it’s not a big enough step up to justify another $100-ish, but Im not looking for a big step up.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Mountain

My thinking is that, on street tires and non-motorsports ABS, a less aggressive [mu] and more consistent (less peaky).

Probably true. OE pads seem to be kind of "hemmed in" by a minimum mu needing to be high enough for pedal force with loss of power assist on the low end and some sort of maximum mu to suit the rather on-off nature of ABS on the high end.

OE and OE-replacement brake pads come with edge codes that indicate ranges of mu, both hot and cold. Track-rated pads may not - for example, G-loc in R10 does not (I just looked at a new-in-box set of rear pads I happen to have on hand).

DOT Pad Codes

This two letter edge code mandated by the DOT, and painted on all street legal brake pads, will give you some indication of their ability to resist fade. But only if you know how to read them. However, because of the wide range involved in each letter, it is only a rough indication.

Explanation of D.O.T. Edge Codes Located on all Brake Pads

Official D.O.T. Edge Code
Coefficient of Friction (C.F.)
@ 250 F and @ 600 F
Comments
EE
0.25 to 0.35 both temps
0-25% fade at 600 F possible
------------------------------

FE
0.25 to 0.35 @ 250 F
0.35 to 0.45 @ 600 F
2% to 44% fade at 600 F possible
------------------------------

FF
0.35 to 0.45 both temps
0-22% fade at 600 F possible
---------------------------

GG
0.45 to 0.55
Very Rare
---------------------------

HH
0.55 to 0.65
Carbon/Carbon only.
O.K. up to 3000 F where it glows

Notes: These edge codes are located on the edge of the friction material of every brake pad by government regulation, along with some other codes. The first letter is a grading of the C.F. at 250 F and the second letter is a grading of the material at 600 F. Each letter grade can actually have quite a range of C.F. But a difference in the letter grade from medium to hot temperature could be an indicator of fade. The letters can be in any order. Therefore FE pads fade when hot, and EF pads would not grab when cold.. Also, you should know that Steel on Steel has a C.F. of 0.25!! So EE pads have only marginally more torque than no pads at all! Therefore FF pads are usually considered the minimum for a high-performance pad.

Emphasis above mine, in particular for Trackclub's benefit.


Norm

[TrackClub]

Mountain, yep, worth a try. The chart would suggest differences to be minimal, but who knows. Very interested in your future feedback, incl longevity.

Norm, thanks for that info incl highlighted tid bit Good to know!

Cheers!

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

Everyone that I have told to add the SS track deflectors always responds with the 1LE/ZL1/ZLE doesn't need them, it's ready to track from the factory. I don't understand why they want to resist better brake cooling especially for how cheap the deflectors are, but hopefully they will listen to you.

Well, technically only an SS *needs* them. Clearly there is something very different going on with brakes and cooling for this specific model vs SS 1le, zl1 and zl1 1le for GM to insist a 12 step process be followed and then reversed (for street). I havent had a chance to compare SS with SS 1le brakes side by side, but o obviously they differ. Even the splash guard is different and oriented differently. There are proly other significant differences too.

So exactly what are we taking about here regarding SS 1le specifically? Doing all 12 steps per GM for the SS? Or just adding a lower control arm larger deflector (which hangs way too low for street use to my liking). Lastly, whatever it is, how cooler do calipers run? Any measurement available regarding cooling gains?

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Well, technically only an SS *needs* them. Clearly there is something very different going on with brakes and cooling for this specific model vs SS 1le, zl1 and zl1 1le for GM to insist a 12 step process be followed and then reversed (for street). I havent had a chance to compare SS with SS 1le brakes side by side, but o obviously they differ. Even the splash guard is different and oriented differently. There are proly other significant differences too.

So exactly what are we taking about here regarding SS 1le specifically? Doing all 12 steps per GM for the SS? Or just adding a lower control arm larger deflector (which hangs way too low for street use to my liking). Lastly, whatever it is, how cooler do calipers run? Any measurement available regarding cooling gains?

The cooling ducts between SS and SS 1LE are the exact same. Actually, the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE are basically the same too. The SS also carries the track warranty, same as the SS 1LE, ZL1 and ZL1 1LE. However, the SS is less track focused and more like likely to be used in 4-season compared to other models. So, the SS comes from the factory with full-coverage rotor shields and the smaller deflectors. The “track” deflectors extend pretty far down and can snag road debris and would be a bad idea in snow. This coupled with the smaller brake package (thermal mass) is why the alternate equipment is needed and is in the trunk.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525618

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Probably true. OE pads seem to be kind of "hemmed in" by a minimum mu needing to be high enough for pedal force with loss of power assist on the low end and some sort of maximum mu to suit the rather on-off nature of ABS on the high end.

OE and OE-replacement brake pads come with edge codes that indicate ranges of mu, both hot and cold. Track-rated pads may not - for example, G-loc in R10 does not (I just looked at a new-in-box set of rear pads I happen to have on hand).

Emphasis above mine, in particular for Trackclub's benefit.


Norm

FF on OE Ferodo HP1000/1

[TrackClub]

Mountain, thanks for your response, incl that key thread with all the pix et al. Also, good to know where HP1000s sit vis a vis Norm's post on codes (not surprised with FF given Ferodo's chart). Cheers!