[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Nsxmatt

I'll decide what I post thank you. I made many posts regarding lugging earlier. If you don't like it, you can simply not reply or jump off a cliff. Either way this post will go on without you and your attitude.

And your last post calling me gullible? Get off your high horse ffs.

[Nsxmatt]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

And your last post calling me gullible? Get off your high horse ffs.

Yes, you were being smart to the other poster about the owners manual when you had no other educated response for his well written reasoning behind lugging. So I explained you were gullible if you believed everything listed in the manual. Sorry this struck a nerve.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Nsxmatt

Yes, you were being smart to the other poster about the owners manual when you had no other educated response for his well written reasoning behind lugging. So I explained you were gullible if you believed everything listed in the manual. Sorry this struck a nerve.

His reasoning behind lugging is simply wrong and he's being a persistent d!ck about it... It is a real phenomenon that is best avoided.

You can't point to specific rpm that lugging occurs, it depends on gearing and it's not black and white. You can lug a little or lug a lot. It's super obvious in small 4-cylinder motors, less so in a big V8 but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Floor the motor doing 50 mph in 6th, you're lugging. Simple as that.

Also, what's in the manual is there for a reason, whether you agree or not... you're free to believe what you like.

[DaveC113]

Maybe the man himself will tell us?

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showt...3#post10326063

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

His reasoning behind lugging is simply wrong and he's being a persistent d!ck about it... It is a real phenomenon that is best avoided.

You can't point to specific rpm that lugging occurs, it depends on gearing and it's not black and white. You can lug a little or lug a lot. It's super obvious in small 4-cylinder motors, less so in a big V8 but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Floor the motor doing 50 mph in 6th, you're lugging. Simple as that.

Also, what's in the manual is there for a reason, whether you agree or not... you're free to believe what you like.

But the funny thing is... he’s right.

I would argue with him myself if this were some cable throttle primitive ecu car. It’s not. If it’s tuned correctly it won’t let you do anything too stupid, like open the TB wide open at 300rpm in 6th gear. It just won’t, even if you floor it.

80% load is 80% load. Whether it’s for .5 seconds in first gear or 5 seconds in 5th. It’s still 80% load.

[Nsxmatt]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

His reasoning behind lugging is simply wrong and he's being a persistent d!ck about it... It is a real phenomenon that is best avoided.

On the contrary, he's posting excellent information based on first hand knowledge of engine tuning and characteristics of load and how it applies to this situation. You have no rebuttal other than "look in the manual". He's only a "dick" because you have no intelligent reply and his opinion goes against yours. That's when the name calling usually starts is when you have no reply.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Nsxmatt

On the contrary, he's posting excellent information based on first hand knowledge of engine tuning and characteristics of load and how it applies to this situation. You have no rebuttal other than "look in the manual". He's only a "dick" because you have no intelligent reply and his opinion goes against yours. That's when the name calling usually starts is when you have no reply.

Posting a dyno chart of the motor means nothing, it's more complicated than that. I haven't seen any evidence of an ECU tune that limits torque in order to prevent lugging, that HAS NOT been posted, only that he ASSumes that it does. Again, go floor it in 6th at 50 and see if you're comfortable with what's happening. I certainly wouldn't be.

I'm not posting my opinion either. Lugging is REAL, it's not fake news. It actually exists in the real world.

[Nsxmatt]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Posting a dyno chart of the motor means nothing, it's more complicated than that. I haven't seen any evidence of an ECU tune that limits torque in order to prevent lugging, that HAS NOT been posted, only that he ASSumes that it does. Again, go floor it in 6th at 50 and see if you're comfortable with what's happening. I certainly wouldn't be.

I'm not posting my opinion either. Lugging is REAL, it's not fake news. It actually exists in the real world.

Lugging is real, damage from lugging is the question. Pulling timing, cam angle, fuel, and so on makes it a thing of the past. What kind of evidence would you hope to find? Open up HP tuners and look at the ignition, fuel, and VTC tables. Are they there? Yup. Then there you go. If you need more evidence than that then you don't know what you're talking about.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Nsxmatt

Lugging is real, damage from lugging is the question. Pulling timing, cam angle, fuel, and so on makes it a thing of the past. What kind of evidence would you hope to find?

You'd find that the ECU limits throttle opening and load demand based on rpms and gearing. There's a possibility it does to some extent but enough to completely prevent lugging? IDK, that's why I started the "Ask Al" thread. So we have facts.

Look, you think the owners manual is full of fake information you need to be gullible to believe. I think that says enough...

Let's wait for actual facts rather than assumptions. My assumption is based on the information in the owners manual warning against lugging. If it wasn't possible IDK why it's in there...

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Posting a dyno chart of the motor means nothing, it's more complicated than that. I haven't seen any evidence of an ECU tune that limits torque in order to prevent lugging, that HAS NOT been posted, only that he ASSumes that it does. Again, go floor it in 6th at 50 and see if you're comfortable with what's happening. I certainly wouldn't be.

I'm not posting my opinion either. Lugging is REAL, it's not fake news. It actually exists in the real world.

I'd like you to slowly point out the parts of the power output and ECU strategy where I'm "ASSuming"?

*SAE power certification process
*Torque management tables
*Knock strategy
*TB opening angle table
*the breadth of RPM covered in all fuel and spark tables and coefficients

Also, if it's "more complicated than that", humor me and spell it out.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

You'd find that the ECU limits throttle opening and load demand based on rpms and gearing. There's a possibility it does to some extent but enough to completely prevent lugging? IDK, that's why I started the "Ask Al" thread. So we have facts.

You mean this table here:

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

... My assumption is based on the information in the owners manual warning against lugging. If it wasn't possible IDK why it's in there...

What information? We've covered this already; the owners manual contains vague terms, not hard data.

Are you so naive to think the OEM isn't going to legally cover their bases?

[Nsxmatt]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Look, you think the owners manual is full of fake information you need to be gullible to believe. I think that says enough...

The owners manual advises not to leave the engine running in park. So you follow this also? You never ever leave your car running once its parked? The engineers put it in the manual so catastrophic engine damage may occur if you do ya know....

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

You mean this table here:

That's the best thing you've posted so far.

However, it doesn't mean that it's impossible to lug the motor. How about when it's fully loaded going up a hill in 6th gear? I would think there's plenty of potential to lug in those circumstances. There are limits to what the ECU knows and can account for.