[mdmoore23]

Originally Posted by Jeffro19

Good video to watch. Very close but definitely the ZL1 lost some ground when he shifted. Would LOVE to see a dig race between those 2. It would be very close I'm sure. No doubt the hellcat is a fast car as is the ZL1. Also can't wait to see this same race with the A10. Not worried about the GT500 since nothing is known about it just rumors.

Given Ford's ability to hype the halo cars, even when the GT500 does debut the ADM will probably be so ridiculous that it won't even be in the conversation. Just look at the 350R. It's an awesome car at the msrp of mid $60k. But with dealers asking $100k plus, it just doesn'the make sense to me.

[Michigan1LTRS]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

Did FCA drop the ball by making the 4th Gen look nearly identical to a 1970 1st gen? I mean thank god they didn't make it look like 2nd gen or whatever this 1978 monstrosity is. I guess when their best looking car was from 1970...that's where they have to go.

Oh my eyes, my eyes!! wow!!

[URBAN LEGEND]

I think this thread reached its peak a few posts ago.

[Sven59]

Originally Posted by mdmoore23

I consider myself lucky, but none of the 10 cars I've had in the past 10 years have need to go to shop. So they've all been 100% reliable to me. We're in a different age of reliability in my opinion. Cars are on a whole other level vs. where they were in terms of reliability. I was a Ford mechanic paid on commission for 7 years. I saw first hand how build quality and reliability increased exponentially. Matter of fact, that's why I had to get on a different career path. Cars today may have quirks or first year issues, but for the most part they're all good to go. Especially the American brands.

There is a reason they do reliability studies. And the data puts Dodge at the bottom of the list and chevy and most of GM is in the top 1/4. Actually this is my first Chevrolet. I have owned a Acura Legend, BMW 7series, Volvo 960 and my CJ. My ZL1 rates in reliability along with those cars. But then again I am an old guy. So fanboy is a trigger word.

[DenverTaco07]

I guess I won't get an answer. An argument was made that the 6th Gen Camaro is a fail because it looks too similar to a 5th gen, but a car that is nearly identical to one from 1970 is a winner...???

Look...I mean it's fine if you don't like the looks of a Camaro, nobody with any integrity will say that looks aren't subjective but if the metric of a good car or a "Win", is that it never looks like its predecessor, then nearly every single car in history is a fail.

I personally like the looks of the HC, GT350, ZL1...probably HC the least of the three...just not into the retro, but I get it if you are, the HC is by far best retro.

[mdmoore23]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

I guess I won't get an answer. An argument was made that the 6th Gen Camaro is a fail because it looks too similar to a 5th gen, but a car that is nearly identical to one from 1970 is a winner...???

Look...I mean it's fine if you don't like the looks of a Camaro, nobody with any integrity will say that looks aren't subjective but if the metric of a good car or a "Win", is that it never looks like its predecessor, then nearly every single car in history is a fail.

I personally like the looks of the HC, GT350, ZL1...probably HC the least of the three...just not into the retro, but I get it if you are, the HC is by far best retro.

I guess this comment is directed at me. Your analogy is completely different from the point I made. The new generation challengers are obviously and purposefully retro. Everyone knows that. But Chevy went retro with the Camaro in the 5th gen. That car ran it's course and we moved to a 6th gen and a whole new Alpha platform. But the exterior profile remained nearly untouched. I'm not trying to offend or bash, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who expected more of a makeover when we were waiting for the 6th gen debut. Take the new generation Mustang for example. It's completely different looking from the last gen. You can't apply this to the Challenger because they have not changed generations yet.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by mdmoore23

I guess this comment is directed at me. Your analogy is completely different from the point I made. The new generation challengers are obviously and purposefully retro. Everyone knows that. But Chevy went retro with the Camaro in the 5th gen. That car ran it's course and we moved to a 6th gen and a whole new Alpha platform. But the exterior profile remained nearly untouched. I'm not trying to offend or bash, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who expected more of a makeover when we were waiting for the 6th gen debut. Take the new generation Mustang for example. It's completely different looking from the last gen. You can't apply this to the Challenger because they have not changed generations yet.

Dodge has been producing the same Challenger body since 2007 and the Mustang is not a daring departure from the past.

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by mdmoore23

I guess this comment is directed at me. Your analogy is completely different from the point I made. The new generation challengers are obviously and purposefully retro. Everyone knows that. But Chevy went retro with the Camaro in the 5th gen. That car ran it's course and we moved to a 6th gen and a whole new Alpha platform. But the exterior profile remained nearly untouched. I'm not trying to offend or bash, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who expected more of a makeover when we were waiting for the 6th gen debut. Take the new generation Mustang for example. It's completely different looking from the last gen. You can't apply this to the Challenger because they have not changed generations yet.

The looks of the 5th Gen was widely held as a enormous success. If it was held as a failure, that is the point where I would expect drastic changes. It's not too smart if GM took a huge success and threw it away. BTW, when I see a new Camaro, it is a very nice change, the looks of this new Gen make the car look awesome at each trim level, for me this wasn't the case in 5th gen.

And look at the new Ford gt...wow way different from the last one....oh wait, no it isnt, nor do I think it should be. I could go down a list of 100 car models and say the same thing. Viper...they all look the same...what a failure. Porsche...failure.

Originally Posted by hotlap

Dodge has been producing the same Challenger body since 2007 and the Mustang is not a daring departure from the past.

And does dodge even have any plans in the next couple years?...So lazy arse Dodge is a hero for running a tired platform for 10+ years...LOL. the rumors are new chally unveiled in 2019, for model year 2020...so 12 years....LOL.

[Cuda7050]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Dodge has been producing the same Challenger body since 2007 and the Mustang is not a daring departure from the past.

Agree. If a manufacturer has a great looking design such as the mustang, challenger or gen 5 Camaro a major design departure is stupid in my opinion. Porsche has certain iconic looks that each generation just refines. If someone wants a different look buy something else. If the manufacturer design team comes up with something completely new, introduce it under a different name.

[jjsc6]

Originally Posted by Artos

There is always engineering & redesign...I'm not knocking the car for what it is as I do like it, just suggesting it can & should be done in my humble opinion. I think Ford & GM did well with the 350R & new ZL1.

I guess I'm obviously in the minority wanting Dodge to bring a car that can do both in the same price point...maybe it will be Jeep & the Trackhawk.

I actually agree with you about the HC. But while I'm not always proud of it, I have a degree in business/marketing, so I tend to sympathize with the manufacturers, whether I like the results or not, when I understand the constraints they are up against.

The good news is that GM and Ford fill the void that Dodge has to concede. So as consumers we have good choices. And for Dodge, it appears to me the HC line has been very successful with the niche they have. I think we can all agree that there are three cars that have amazing performance and features for $60,000 or so. In Fords case I'm really referring to the non R that actually can be bought at MSRP.

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by Sven59

There is a reason they do reliability studies. And the data puts Dodge at the bottom of the list and chevy and most of GM is in the top 1/4. Actually this is my first Chevrolet. I have owned a Acura Legend, BMW 7series, Volvo 960 and my CJ. My ZL1 rates in reliability along with those cars. But then again I am an old guy. So fanboy is a trigger word.

In buying the Camaro I'd say you stepped waaaaay up over the Imports. So far as the Dodge's go I know two who own HC's and neither are complaining about QC issues. Don't get me wrong, I bleed Chevrolet however, I see some plus's in those HC's. They are powerful as hell, ride extremely well and have very nice interior appointments along with enough comfort to drive from coast to coast without needing a chiropractor. The one thing that does bug me about new cars is that the top of the doors are so high it feels like I'm sitting in the bottom of a box. Camaro included and outward visibility lacks.

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by mdmoore23

I guess this comment is directed at me. Your analogy is completely different from the point I made. The new generation challengers are obviously and purposefully retro. Everyone knows that. But Chevy went retro with the Camaro in the 5th gen. That car ran it's course and we moved to a 6th gen and a whole new Alpha platform. But the exterior profile remained nearly untouched. I'm not trying to offend or bash, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who expected more of a makeover when we were waiting for the 6th gen debut. Take the new generation Mustang for example. It's completely different looking from the last gen. You can't apply this to the Challenger because they have not changed generations yet.

The gen 6 Camaro has shown itself to be an improvement over the last. I think they did miss styling a bit on the tail lights but the car is a vast improvement
everywhere under the skin. The ZL1 knocks it out of the park except in the tail panel but that can change easily enough. It is a very very competitive supercar actually.

[Sinister Zl1]

Ooooook. This is damn near what happened in my race with a kitty. BUT we were both from a DIG and thats how I pulled ahead in the beginning. The raw horsepower of the kitty walked me down eventually. But I want to see the A10 because an auto vs m6 is automatically unfair as hell lol!

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by Sinister Zl1

Ooooook. This is damn near what happened in my race with a kitty. BUT we were both from a DIG and thats how I pulled ahead in the beginning. The raw horsepower of the kitty walked me down eventually. But I want to see the A10 because an auto vs m6 is automatically unfair as hell lol!

Agree, the manual HC is grossly lacking as compared to the A8 at the track. Both cars with sticky tires will tell the truth at the track. The driver is of course a major factor. On a road course there is an obvious advantage to Chevy between these two.