[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by RamAir02

I realize this thread is a few years old, but I found it searching and wanted to recognize the great discussion and wealth of information in this thread. Really interesting points, especially from TrackClub & Norm, but a lot of great contributions overall.

Personally, I just ordered my first set of DS1.11 pads to try this season. I've been on the OEM Ferodo HP1000s exclusively. I'll still be running SC3R tires and was pretty close to pulling the trigger on DTC60s on all four corners, but decided to give the DS1.11s a shot first.

I've been pretty content with teh OEM Ferodo HP1000s, but notice the pedal will get a little soft sometimes at the end of a 25 minute session. The bigger issue, however, is that as I've gotten quicker the last few years, the pad wear has gotten SUPER uneven. I know now that I should rotate the pads, but by the time I realized the uneven wear on my two most recent sets, they were down to the wear bars on the low side. Quick video clip of the pads I took off yesterday below.

I'm hoping for a *little* better life out of the DS1.11s and I've heard they're a *bit* friendlier to rotors than the Hawks. We'll see. I'll likely try DTC60s later in the season.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-beM3Ead2Y0

Thank you for your kind words and yes indeed a lot of folks have contributed here! DS1.11 are a nice pad with a flat torque. I ran them on my C5Z track car for a bit, albeit with aftermarket AP brake kit. I think DTC60 would also be a good pad to try based on feedback I trust. Never had an uneven wear with stockers, but it did happen to me when testing xp10s moons ago at the Glen. Have fun and enjoy the car! And let us know what you think about the new Ferodos. Cheers!

[TrackClub]

Just took a peek at your vid: looks like you cought them just in time!

[RamAir02]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Thank you for your kind words and yes indeed a lot of folks have contributed here! DS1.11 are a nice pad with a flat torque. I ran them on my C5Z track car for a bit, albeit with aftermarket AP brake kit. I think DTC60 would also be a good pad to try based on feedback I trust. Never had an uneven wear with stockers, but it did happen to me when testing xp10s moons ago at the Glen. Have fun and enjoy the car! And let us know what you think about the new Ferodos. Cheers!

Absolutely will! I would also like to try Raybestos, Carbotech & G-LOC in due time. Thought the DS1.11 followed by DTC60 would be good starting points as I test my way through the available & recommended pads.

I never had uneven wear my first two years of DE, but my belief is that as I've become a better driver (more confidence), I have also become more aggressive (less overall braking, but harder braking and carrying more speed into the braking zone). In addition to the uneven brake wear on the HP1000s, I've noticed I'm going through SC3R tires at a more rapid rate as well.

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Just took a peek at your vid: looks like you cought them just in time!

If you count wear bars starting to screech on my rotors, then, yeah, it was just in time

Critical feedback on my driving is always welcome. Here's my YouTube channel

[TrackClub]

Firstly: why are you in Sport1 mode? At least I assume that's what I am seeing, albeit it is a bit blurry on my phone

Secondly, very nice driving! I don't think you brake particularly late, or hard, but you come off of them a bit fast and that's likely causing a bit too much sliding (and almost dumped ya into Armco when the fronts hooked up) Sliding the car is awesome to learn car control (and to have fun!) but not to go the fastest. Also, at times you are a bit greedy with the throttle (in long mid corners), before the car has a chance to fully rotate and take a set and that will enduce understeer and more sliding. Lastly, you seem to have a tendency to coast in mid corner, which is not ideal (by and large) and probably a bit of a habit by now? So, a bit more practice and time to master the feeling of what the car is doing balance wise, which is critical. Without this skill, we can still be very fast, but sooner or later we will get surprised and then bad things can happen.

Watch Provoste 2:04.6 lap at the Glen in a stock SS 1LE on scrubs and analyse what he does (to balance the car just right) with controls - corner by corner. His driving is excellent.

As far as the pads, well, they sure were done like dinner as there was almost no pad left (on one side anyway). It is a good idea to develop a habit of checking the car after each and every stint: rims, tires, brakes, under the car, etc. Ya just never know. I have been surpised a couple of times...NB Funny enough, the only time i had uneven pad wear was at the Glen...hmm...

And a parting thought: you seem to upshift too early in the esses, dropping tons of RPM and momentum. The std place for an upshift is after exiting the L hander, not before.

Anyhow, that's my unsolicited advice (which I am famous for).
Thanks for posting, have fun and maybe we will see ya at the track this season. Cheers!

[khcoaching]

Originally Posted by RamAir02

Absolutely will! I would also like to try Raybestos, Carbotech & G-LOC in due time. Thought the DS1.11 followed by DTC60 would be good starting points as I test my way through the available & recommended pads.

I never had uneven wear my first two years of DE, but my belief is that as I've become a better driver (more confidence), I have also become more aggressive (less overall braking, but harder braking and carrying more speed into the braking zone). In addition to the uneven brake wear on the HP1000s, I've noticed I'm going through SC3R tires at a more rapid rate as well.



If you count wear bars starting to screech on my rotors, then, yeah, it was just in time

Critical feedback on my driving is always welcome. Here's my YouTube channel

Your turn-ins are too late and too quick....the reason the car almost spun was because you added too much wheel, too late. Try turning in earlier, but slower and it will make a world of difference.

Ken

[RamAir02]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Firstly: why are you in Sport1 mode? At least I assume that's what I am seeing, albeit it is a bit blurry on my phone

Secondly, very nice driving! I don't think you brake particularly late, or hard, but you come off of them a bit fast and that's likely causing a bit too much sliding (and almost dumped ya into Armco when the fronts hooked up) Sliding the car is awesome to learn car control (and to have fun!) but not to go the fastest. Also, at times you are a bit greedy with the throttle (in long mid corners), before the car has a chance to fully rotate and take a set and that will enduce understeer and more sliding. Lastly, you seem to have a tendency to coast in mid corner, which is not ideal (by and large) and probably a bit of a habit by now? So, a bit more practice and time to master the feeling of what the car is doing balance wise, which is critical. Without this skill, we can still be very fast, but sooner or later we will get surprised and then bad things can happen.

Watch Provoste 2:04.6 lap at the Glen in a stock SS 1LE on scrubs and analyse what he does (to balance the car just right) with controls - corner by corner. His driving is excellent.

As far as the pads, well, they sure were done like dinner as there was almost no pad left (on one side anyway). It is a good idea to develop a habit of checking the car after each and every stint: rims, tires, brakes, under the car, etc. Ya just never know. I have been surpised a couple of times...NB Funny enough, the only time i had uneven pad wear was at the Glen...hmm...

And a parting thought: you seem to upshift too early in the esses, dropping tons of RPM and momentum. The std place for an upshift is after exiting the L hander, not before.

Anyhow, that's my unsolicited advice (which I am famous for).
Thanks for posting, have fun and maybe we will see ya at the track this season. Cheers!

Originally Posted by khcoaching

Your turn-ins are too late and too quick....the reason the car almost spun was because you added too much wheel, too late. Try turning in earlier, but slower and it will make a world of difference.

Ken

Ayyy, thanks for the quick feedback guys. I wasn't expecting you guys to actually watch and provide tips -- thank you so much.

It probably would've helped to have a little bit of context -- I'm about to start year 3 of my DE experience. I've done 7 events to date. Here is my car journal for more detail if you so desire. All that to say, I'm still learning and still have a lot to learn.

I've also noticed some of the same issues with my driving, so it's great that you guys picked up on similar things.

1. I've been in Sport 1 largely to get comfortable with the car on track. It seemed to be the common recommendation for my skill level from the megathread about PTM modes, so I've stuck with it. Planning to do Sport 2 this season, maybe I'll progress to PTM Race.

2. I was playing around with shifting early up the Esses -- it definitely clearly kills my torque going up the hill and I'm carrying less speed on the edxit than I should. That was an adjustment I was trying to make to avoid unsettling the car in the highest g-force areas. Also because I still have 3-point belts and am being thrown all over the place. I have a roll bar and harnesses for this coming season

3. I definitely picked up on turning in early a few places, particularly turn 6 where I'm hugging the apex and need to turn in later. I need to review where I'm turning in late.

Again, the feedback is much appreciated

[TrackClub]

I think your driving is really, really great for 7 days behind your belt! I also think you are at the stage, where you start pushing for more pace (clearly). So, you have a decision to make:

Stay with Sport1 stability control (which is not infallible btw) and try driving very precisely and neat (to avoid it intervening), or go with Race and be able to feel exactly where the limits are and where the balance is. FYI The car is much tighter in Sport1 and the feeling of the balance is dulled down, which is safe, but less than ideal at many levels. If you are doing it just to have fun, stay in Sport1. If you want to really learn how to get the most out of the car and control it as a driver: switch to Race, dial down your aggression a bit and learn to feel the balance and how to manage it controls. And be ready to make any necessary corrections when the car gets out of balance. Try it first at an intermediate and safe track vs the Glen. The car will rotate much more willingly and it will become more sensitive to control inputs (allowing you to manage yaw much better). FYI Sport2 is there mainly as a tire management tool vs safety (as Stabilitrac is fully off anyway), so if you decide to progress from Sport1: try Race.

As far as being thrown around in a seat, I don't have this problem, so maybe try pressing your shoulders in more. It seems your shoulders are away from the seat when you lean into the corner. My style is to do the opposite: I press my outside shoulder into the seat and that gives me a very solid position with zero movement. Basically, I assume a position the same as I would while wearing a harness, which would definitely not allow me to lean my torso into a corner. So, harness is not necessarily required to solve this problem. Note that you may need to bring the back of your seat more up straight to facilitate this.
Maybe also see if sitting a bit closer to the controls would be better?

Regarding roll bar and harness...many threads have been written about this subject, including pros and cons, so I will only focus on the main points: I would NEVER street a car with a roll bar, due to tremendous safety issue regarding an unprotected head situation and of course zero airbags. Secondly, do not assume, that roll bar and harness combo is automatically safer vs multitude of OEM air bags present in modern cars. and tested until cows come home. I have seen a few big wrecks and folks simply walked away saved by OEM safety systems. Roll bar and harness will deactivate all of them and safety design will be 100% on you and the systems you decide to install (likely never tested by anyone). Moreover, note that reputable racing orgs require a cage vs a roll bar and there is a good reason for it.
In my travels, I continue to see some good systems and some really bad ones, which sometimes mirror not wearing any seat belts at all (due to installation errors). Personal decision, so enough said.

As far as the esses, focus on the turn in and exit instead and on maxing the speed there and leave the upshift once you track out to the right. Yes, it will feel different being in 4th at high RPM, but that's how you will make pace there.

As the previous post suggested, your entries could be a bit shallower. This would permit deeper braking snd less steering input (especially in long corners). From what I see you are not too early in T6 at all. Review the vid when you ride with an instructor and watch when he tells you to start the entry. Keep in mind, long corners have long apexes, so to speak.

Anyhow, like I said before, great driving and great pace. Study and seat time will do the rest. Do not rush it though. Small steps are best for progression. Also, do not shy away from receiving more instruction - even pros at the top of their game take advantage of coaching regularly. I still invite more accomplished, or just trusted folks to ride with me and give me feedback. And I always learn something, which is great Have fun! Cheers!

[RamAir02]

Thanks and I think you're absolutely correct -- I'm at the stage where I'm chasing lap times, but I do agree that I should pare it back and focus on being the best driver I can be.

I'll be visiting some new-to-me tracks this year (Summit Point & VIR), so I might do day one in Sport 1 to get familiar with the courses. I know WGI well enough by this point that I'm comfortable trying PTM Race -- although I will dial it back to 7/10ths or 8/10ths.

I'll pay more attention to seating position and will try a bit more of an upright position. I did notice watching my most recent videos that I am (quite awkwardly!) throwing my body into corners along with the car.

With regard the roll bar and harnesses -- all airbags are still in tact, stock seat belts remain installed and the car is rarely street driven. I am planning to use the harnesses in conjunction with the stock 3 point belts.

Thanks again for all of the advice. I do still ride with an instructor whenever possible -- I was promoted to intermediate solo last year, but I still grab my buddy who is an instructor as a passenger for a good amount of my sessions.

I'll come back to this thread with feedback on the DS1.11s and DTC60s later in the season. It'll be interesting to compare since I have one new set of HP1000s left, so I'll start the season on those, then run the DS1.11s and then DTC60s.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by RamAir02

Thanks and I think you're absolutely correct -- I'm at the stage where I'm chasing lap times, but I do agree that I should pare it back and focus on being the best driver I can be.

I'll be visiting some new-to-me tracks this year (Summit Point & VIR), so I might do day one in Sport 1 to get familiar with the courses. I know WGI well enough by this point that I'm comfortable trying PTM Race -- although I will dial it back to 7/10ths or 8/10ths.

I'll pay more attention to seating position and will try a bit more of an upright position. I did notice watching my most recent videos that I am (quite awkwardly!) throwing my body into corners along with the car.

With regard the roll bar and harnesses -- all airbags are still in tact, stock seat belts remain installed and the car is rarely street driven. I am planning to use the harnesses in conjunction with the stock 3 point belts.

Thanks again for all of the advice. I do still ride with an instructor whenever possible -- I was promoted to intermediate solo last year, but I still grab my buddy who is an instructor as a passenger for a good amount of my sessions.

I'll come back to this thread with feedback on the DS1.11s and DTC60s later in the season. It'll be interesting to compare since I have one new set of HP1000s left, so I'll start the season on those, then run the DS1.11s and then DTC60s.

Sounds like a plan! How do you intend on running harnesses and still retain airbags? From what I understand, as soon as you swap out the OEM seat (to properly accommodate harnesses), the air bags stop being operational. Cheers!

[RamAir02]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Sounds like a plan! How do you intend on running harnesses and still retain airbags? From what I understand, as soon as you swap out the OEM seat (to properly accommodate harnesses), the air bags stop being operational. Cheers!

I am keeping the OEM seats for now and using Schroth's Profi II 4 point with ASM technolology

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by RamAir02

I am keeping the OEM seats for now and using Schroth's Profi II 4 point with ASM technolology

Firstly, the marketing vid above focuses on a problem, that does not exist in vehicles that receive a 5 star frontal crash rating from official crash tests (submarining). Secondly, any aftermarket belt install with stock seats, will change original belt design geometry, which could be critical incl abdominal injuries, shoulder s containment, etc. Note, that these belts were never actually tested by DOT, as I understand. Neither has the company tested them with individual car makes apparently (they would have to purchase and crash many cars!). So, this seems a generic, "fit all" safety solution, which the company self certifed to a few basic DOT standards. So, that's what "DOT approved" seems to mean here.

Secondly, many (most?) DE orgs prohibit any 4 points. This aside, no racing body would permit any harness whatsoever without a FIXED seat and one that has proper "guides" to accommodate them, for very basic and vital safety principles. Our seats provide for NEITHER of the two requirements.

Also, you then have an issue in case of a roll over, unless you have a half cage (preferred), or a top notch roll bar at minimum (not a bolt on!).

My parting words: safety is a personal decision, so I will respect whatever you do. Any miss wrt an aftermarket systems, even a small one, could render it completely useless (I have seen my share of those!). So (for what's it worth) I personally I stick with government tested EOM systems, which have been designed to work together and in concert (seat, belts, airbags) that provide a 5 star safety rating, based on actual crash tests, or follow what racing bodies require: fixed seat, min 5 point, min welded in roll bar of proper design (cross members etc) and calculated strength for the weight of the car.

PS Not sure if you are aware, but OEM belts can be locked in place to hold a driver really well, with zero slack, by pulling them out and then releasing them.

Here's a couple of good vids to ponder, which explain what to pay attention to. Cheers!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=muhcIlLVZqI

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BFUdxc...p=QAFIAQ%3D%3D

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by RamAir02

I realize this thread is a few years old, but I found it searching and wanted to recognize the great discussion and wealth of information in this thread. Really interesting points, especially from TrackClub & Norm, but a lot of great contributions overall.

Personally, I just ordered my first set of DS1.11 pads to try this season. I've been on the OEM Ferodo HP1000s exclusively. I'll still be running SC3R tires and was pretty close to pulling the trigger on DTC60s on all four corners, but decided to give the DS1.11s a shot first.

I've been pretty content with teh OEM Ferodo HP1000s, but notice the pedal will get a little soft sometimes at the end of a 25 minute session. The bigger issue, however, is that as I've gotten quicker the last few years, the pad wear has gotten SUPER uneven. I know now that I should rotate the pads, but by the time I realized the uneven wear on my two most recent sets, they were down to the wear bars on the low side. Quick video clip of the pads I took off yesterday below.

I'm hoping for a *little* better life out of the DS1.11s and I've heard they're a *bit* friendlier to rotors than the Hawks. We'll see. I'll likely try DTC60s later in the season.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-beM3Ead2Y0

I get about 8 days out of a set of DTC60s. If I rotate pads every 4 days I could see pushing that to 9 days total.

[RamAir02]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Firstly, the marketing vid above focuses on a problem, that does not exist in vehicles that receive a 5 star frontal crash rating from official crash tests (submarining). Secondly, any aftermarket belt install with stock seats, will change original belt design geometry, which could be critical incl abdominal injuries, shoulder s containment, etc. Note, that these belts were never actually tested by DOT, as I understand. Neither has the company tested them with individual car makes apparently (they would have to purchase and crash many cars!). So, this seems a generic, "fit all" safety solution, which the company self certifed to a few basic DOT standards. So, that's what "DOT approved" seems to mean here.

Secondly, many (most?) DE orgs prohibit any 4 points. This aside, no racing body would permit any harness whatsoever without a FIXED seat and one that has proper "guides" to accommodate them, for very basic and vital safety principles. Our seats provide for NEITHER of the two requirements.

Also, you then have an issue in case of a roll over, unless you have a half cage (preferred), or a top notch roll bar at minimum (not a bolt on!).

My parting words: safety is a personal decision, so I will respect whatever you do. Any miss wrt an aftermarket systems, even a small one, could render it completely useless (I have seen my share of those!). So (for what's it worth) I personally I stick with government tested EOM systems, which have been designed to work together and in concert (seat, belts, airbags) that provide a 5 star safety rating, based on actual crash tests, or follow what racing bodies require: fixed seat, min 5 point, min welded in roll bar of proper design (cross members etc) and calculated strength for the weight of the car.

PS Not sure if you are aware, but OEM belts can be locked in place to hold a driver really well, with zero slack, by pulling them out and then releasing them.

Here's a couple of good vids to ponder, which explain what to pay attention to. Cheers!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=muhcIlLVZqI

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BFUdxc...p=QAFIAQ%3D%3D

Thanks again for all of your feedback and advice. I *think* I'm going with a relatively low risk setup. Stock seats with all airbags, 4-pt CMS Roll Bar, ASM 4-pt Harnesses, HANS and stock seat belts. I've seen setups where folks run the 5th or 6th point either around the front of the seat cushion or between the seat cushion & seat back -- that setup scares me more than the approach I'm taking. I won't dig my heels in and say I'm right -- I did a bunch of research and am this is what I landed on for now. Maybe I'd be better off with only the OEM safety system. Maybe I'd be better off with a race seat, no airbags and a 6-pt. I don't know for sure and, unfortunately, there is no testing that compares these different setups (that I've found).

I've watched Cliff's video before. I haven't seen the Busted Knuckle video -- I'll check it out. Thanks again.

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

I get about 8 days out of a set of DTC60s. If I rotate pads every 4 days I could see pushing that to 9 days total.

That's WAYYYY more life than I get with the HP1000s. Somewhat track & driver dependent, but I get around 3 days max out of a set of HP1000s (although I haven't rotated them which would likely give a bit more life).

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by RamAir02

Thanks again for all of your feedback and advice. I *think* I'm going with a relatively low risk setup. Stock seats with all airbags, 4-pt CMS Roll Bar, ASM 4-pt Harnesses, HANS and stock seat belts. I've seen setups where folks run the 5th or 6th point either around the front of the seat cushion or between the seat cushion & seat back -- that setup scares me more than the approach I'm taking. I won't dig my heels in and say I'm right -- I did a bunch of research and am this is what I landed on for now. Maybe I'd be better off with only the OEM safety system. Maybe I'd be better off with a race seat, no airbags and a 6-pt. I don't know for sure and, unfortunately, there is no testing that compares these different setups (that I've found).

I've watched Cliff's video before. I haven't seen the Busted Knuckle video -- I'll check it out. Thanks again.



That's WAYYYY more life than I get with the HP1000s. Somewhat track & driver dependent, but I get around 3 days max out of a set of HP1000s (although I haven't rotated them which would likely give a bit more life).

Glad to be of help, albeit this is just my perspective. The other vid focuses more on importance of proper geometry and possible issues. Speaking of perspective, I would NEVER run any harness on stock seats, simply because they have not been designed for them and because they will provide for less than ideal shoulder strap geometry. But, your air bags will still be functional at least (even though they have been designed for a different body travel). Anyhow, best wishes and have bags of fun this season! NB As far as pads, i get up to 6 days max out of my stockers, but it is very much track dependent and Id say the Glen is rather hard on brakes. I wore out brand new pads there in 2 days