[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by 17rsvert

I'm sure the same arguments were made 110 years ago.

The automobile will NEVER replace the horse.
They are too expensive... no place to buy gasoline ... way too noisy...they break down too much... the tires don't last... too hard and too dangerous to crank start... not enough paved roads...

Automobile racing? Who wants to watch that? That'll never replace horse racing!

Have you 'upgraded' your car's factory sound system with a tube amplifier and turntable? Some people still argue that digital music and solid state electronics sound much worse.

Look, I'm not 100% on board with electric cars either at this moment, but I'd feel foolish if I at least didn't keep an open mind.

Actually, I have a beautiful vintage 1966 Fisher tube power amp that drives the main channels in my stereo/theater system that makes anything short of a modern $50,000 McIntosh system sound like complete garbage. And with my Pro-Ject Carbon Black turntable and a pretty substantial collection of 180g remastered vinyl, I’m quite certain you’ve never heard Dark Side of the Moon sound nearly as good as it does in my living room. Unless you saw Floyd live.

Now what was your question? Ya lost me.

[90503]

You always see 100K-200K plus EV Porsches, EV Teslas, etc. shown as examples of why an EV is "inevitable", you can't avoid the future, etc....The only part of the future the EV promoters forgot is that to get all the hi-performance and long range ability everyone wants, you have to spend a fortune.

The actual EVs that are predicted to be mass produced will fall far short of the examples they give. And the artificial demand that they claim to have for EVs will disappear because it never existed in the first place.

[17rsvert]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Actually, I have a beautiful vintage 1966 Fisher tube power amp that drives the main channels in my stereo/theater system that makes anything short of a modern $50,000 McIntosh system sound like complete garbage. And with my Pro-Ject Carbon Black turntable and a pretty substantial collection of 180g remastered vinyl, I’m quite certain you’ve never heard Dark Side of the Moon sound nearly as good as it does in my living room. Unless you saw Floyd live.

Now what was your question? Ya lost me.

I had a feeling you were an oldschool audio guy too. Nothing wrong with that. Even though you love your tube amp and turntable, I don't think there are many (I'm sure someone has) who would bother installing them in a car. Hey, people still like horse racing. But the technology changes. My point is that I don't automatically dismiss new tech just because it's new and different. The new higher torque and HP electric motors are going to expose a bunch of limitations in present state of the art automotive components. Think of tires, steering, suspension, frame design, safety featues... all of that will have to improve to take advantage of the higher power from electric. If the speed of car racing (or even road travel) can SAFELY increase because of this new technology, it changes into something maybe even more exciting. I like to keep an open mind so I don't show my age.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by 17rsvert

I had a feeling you were an oldschool audio guy too. Nothing wrong with that. Even though you love your tube amp and turntable, I don't think there are many (I'm sure someone has) who would bother installing them in a car. Hey, people still like horse racing. But the technology changes. My point is that I don't automatically dismiss new tech just because it's new and different. The new higher torque and HP electric motors are going to expose a bunch of limitations in present state of the art automotive components. Think of tires, steering, suspension, frame design, safety featues... all of that will have to improve to take advantage of the higher power from electric. If the speed of car racing (or even road travel) can SAFELY increase because of this new technology, it changes into something maybe even more exciting. I like to keep an open mind so I don't show my age.

I’ll be gutting the B(L)OSE factory system to replace the amp with my old MOSFET Pioneer and Alpine, and all the speakers with JBLs. No they’re not tube but they’re old fashioned FOSFET outputs with zero digital processing crap. And I already listen to CDs in it. Ask me how that works.

Again I didn’t hear anything else you said, it was all blah blah blah.

And I might even be a bit younger than you. I’m 42.

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by 17rsvert

I'm sure the same arguments were made 110 years ago.

The automobile will NEVER replace the horse.
They are too expensive... no place to buy gasoline ... way too noisy...they break down too much... the tires don't last... too hard and too dangerous to crank start... not enough paved roads...

Automobile racing? Who wants to watch that? That'll never replace horse racing!

Have you 'upgraded' your car's factory sound system with a tube amplifier and turntable? Some people still argue that digital music and solid state electronics sound much worse.

Look, I'm not 100% on board with electric cars either at this moment, but I'd feel foolish if I at least didn't keep an open mind.

I agree 100%. Technology doesn't stop. Keep up or get left behind.

I'd love an electric performance coupe, I'm just not sure GM will do it to it correctly, or what is consider correctly.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by IOMike

I agree 100%. Technology doesn't stop. Keep up or get left behind.

I'd love an electric performance coupe, I'm just not sure GM will do it to it correctly, or what is consider correctly.

Just because technology is new, does NOT necessarily make it better

There's plenty of new tech in the history of civilization that never delivered on it's promises.

I did a paper on a similar topic in college. The masses need to be comfortable and willing to accept the new technology in order for it to be a success.

That's a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG ways off. Right now even the MOST aggressive and liberal estimates for alternative fueled vehicle sales are at about 15-20% by the year 2040

Cars were largely seen as something only the rich could attain when they first came out, so frankly there was never an instance of "oh car racing will never replace horse racing"....... it was more like "I can't wait to be able to afford one of those new things called an automobile"

Do some research folks.

[DC5]

Whatever . . . an influx of electric vehicle offerings is on the horizon and nothing is going to change this fact. If you don't want an electric vehicle, don't purchase one. It's that simple.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by IOMike

I agree 100%. Technology doesn't stop. Keep up or get left behind.

Having some understanding of newer technologies is one thing. But don't forget that newer technologies are apt to represent a step back subjectively.

Newer, higher technology ways of getting things done haven't always been better than the older ways that they replaced. Sometimes, not even as good.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

it sounds like you're mad that electric is a better technology to do the job it's supposed to. Which is stupid.

Electric may do some jobs better. Other jobs not as well. Some not nearly as well.

holding on to the past because you hate change is what's sad.

When change takes away more than it gives back, to embrace that change would be sad indeed. Stupid, even.


FWIW, EVs will be just as subject to

being able to drive them for fun due to traffic congestion and aggressive policing both on the roads and at meetups and new and more aggressive laws against everything from sound levels to lights to displays of speed.

Makes all that a non-issue as far as ICE vs EV is concerned. If anything, the EV will be worse off for it because it'll be even harder to use all of the available performance.


Norm

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

FWIW, EVs will be just as subject to
Makes all that a non-issue as far as ICE vs EV is concerned. If anything, the EV will be worse off for it because it'll be even harder to use all of the available performance.

Norm

The past you're trying to hold on to isn't tied to ICE though. It's tied to lower costs, less regulation due to less congestion and less concern for the harm they were doing and weaker safety standards and policing, less corporate control over the electronics and the greater statement of personality due to both variety and cultural importance they offered back in the day.

That's not getting better nor will it ever return to that. Doesn't matter if it's EV or ICE.

equalizing the poor experience as an enthusiast in both options. So why choose the tech with no future?

[mikeman]

Actually, I would not have a problem with a return back to the days of horses. That's the only completely true "green" technology. No toxic batteries to get rid of when they wear out. No increased reliance on the power grid to charge the vehicle every night. And, the best part is, horses can make pretty good companions. You can't do that with a duck faced Model 3.

EV's are being forced down our throats as the answer to future sustainability and being better for the environment. However, you're really just replacing one thing for another if you research it.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by DC5

Whatever . . . an influx of electric vehicle offerings is on the horizon and nothing is going to change this fact. If you don't want an electric vehicle, don't purchase one. It's that simple.

The point is that they’re not going mainstream like some people seem to believe they will. Like I said, in 20 years the market share MIGHT be at 20%, and that’s ALL alternative fuels - of which electric is included, so obviously that will be less.

If people REALLY wanted electric, they’d have been mainstream 10 years ago. Car companies are just like any other company - they want to make the most money they can. If there was SERIOUS profit potential in it the EV1 would have never been scrapped and the Volt would not only still be in production but it’d be selling like hot cakes. 300,000/yr. Hell one of the most eco friendly car companies there are, Honda, would be making nothing but electric Accords and Civics now. When THOSE cars go all electric then you MIGHT see the Camaro go electric.

[17rsvert]

Originally Posted by mikeman

Actually, I would not have a problem with a return back to the days of horses. That's the only completely true "green" technology....

Not quite... I've seen a few news articles claiming that cows and cattle add to the emissions problem by producing methane gas. I'm sure horses would be lumped in there also.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

The point is that they’re not going mainstream like some people seem to believe they will. Like I said, in 20 years the market share MIGHT be at 20%, and that’s ALL alternative fuels - of which electric is included, so obviously that will be less.

If people REALLY wanted electric, they’d have been mainstream 10 years ago. Car companies are just like any other company - they want to make the most money they can. If there was SERIOUS profit potential in it the EV1 would have never been scrapped and the Volt would not only still be in production but it’d be selling like hot cakes. 300,000/yr. Hell one of the most eco friendly car companies there are, Honda, would be making nothing but electric Accords and Civics now. When THOSE cars go all electric then you MIGHT see the Camaro go electric.

A few years away yet, but Honda has joined GM to build cars off of the recently introduce flexible EV architecture.

And with GM's new battery, they have at least stated that they have achieved the holey grail which is parity with the piece cost of an ICE. If true, this changes everything.

By 2025 the landscape changes.

Also when you say 20%, you are about right there. Plus or minus. But I expect a lot of commercial trucks will maintain diesel and gas engines. Those vehicles are a huge percentage of the market. So 20% is going to be a lot of non-FST volume.