[sprtplt]

How much better would sales be if dealers had a lot of base, 1ss cars at $2k off msrp for sale? lol

Of course, most all dealer ordered cars are stupid loaded. The sticker shock to most people (who are only dimly aware this is an all-new car) is a deal breaker.

And no, GM has not deliberately schemed to to sell fewer Camaros than Mustangs and Challengers.

[ChefBorOzzy]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Agreed, which reminds me of what the Motortrend folks said when they did the SS vs BMW M4 head to head. "The biggest challenge they have with the Camaro is the badge." Maybe they think they can take it up market but maybe it will be impossible to shake the pony car image and stigma associated with it. I am fine with it because I tend to be a bang for your buck type of buyer as opposed to paying for a status car.

You are right, most average buyers are going to walk into the dealership and say "you want me to pay $45k for a Camaro?" And they will think they should buy more " status brands" with that much money. Lexus, BMW, Audi, etc.

It's true.. My girlfriend knocked on it and the SS.. "45k for a Chevy?" While she has an A4 Audi which was 45k..i'd much rather have a Chevy SS for same money with more features and power, but we're in the minority.. She also hates the Mustang and Camaro though so she'd never shop in the segment.

[Thor142]

The sticker shock and Chevy stigma are REAL! I know the car is a great car. I think the Gen 6 is stunning. I have no issue with the visibility and I naver gave 2 turds about the interior since that's not why I have a 1LE. I know the new high performance models are gonna blow peoples minds. I do track my car. I'm salivating at seeing the numbers the new 1LE puts up. I have no issue with affordability.


I wince when I look at the prices of a new Camaro........

[ChefBorOzzy]

You can also spend near 40k for a Fusion or an Accord.. So it's all cars that are getting more expensive.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

You and I have seen the light. I think GM new exactly what they are doing with this car. They already had the mass rush of sales on the G5 due to pent up demand. How do you attract new buyers or get existing G5 users to upgrade? You need to build a better car and they did.

They did build a better car but where is the rush to buy it lol

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I feel the same way as you from a buyer's perspective but from a business perspective you have to see it differently. You basically said it yourself, you are going to bite the bullet and cough up the money for the more expensive 1SS because deep down you know it is the better car and the price is worth it for what you get. That is precisely what a company wants to have happen when the charge more than the competition. Some are willing to pay more as long as it is justified. This buying process happens in our minds everyday with all types of products. For example, I can order a steak at the Sizzler or one from Ruth's Chris Steakhouse. Some will pay for the improved quality, taste and experience over the tough run of the mill steak. Why do some folks spend $5 or more for a cup of Starbucks coffee when you can buy a cup of coffee for cheaper?

The Camaro was built to compete. I mean the name Camaro actually means "a small vicious animal that eats mustangs." I mean how could a car live up to that name if it didn't outperform the Mustang.

See below

Originally Posted by Thor142

The only flaw in what you are saying is the average consumer is not seeing the Camaro as a "Ruth's Chris" steak. You have to consider that those of us on forums analyzing every detail of the car and it's performance metrics are NOT average consumers. If Ruth's Chris committed to an order of 50,000lbs of beef and halfway through the fiscal year had only sold 10,000 something would change pretty quick.

Thor pretty much nailed it.

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Good points. I think it depends on you perspective. The car may seem overpriced based for traditional Camaro and pony car buyers but it is a steal if you compare it to something higher end. I always tend to compare everything to the SS, which I should not do because that only represents 20% of Camaro sales anyway. The sales volume problem is as a result of the 1LT and 2LT sales.

So, as it relates to the SS, if you are not hung up on status brands then the Camaro is an absolute steal, hence the BMW, Audi, etc. comparisons. If you are looking for the cheapest v8 then the Camaro is the most expensive of the bunch.

What we should really focus this thread on is 1LT and 2LT T4 and V6 models vs the competition since that will be 80% of sales.

Yes. Someone else said it earlier that the pony car market is beer budget, but the camaro has champagne pricing. But the more important part of your post is concentrating on the lower trim sales. Yes we are all enthusiasts so it almost always goes back to SS Vs GT. The people saying the Camaro is going up market, if it was it would not have these trims to compete with the lower lever Mustangs.

Originally Posted by ChefBorOzzy

It's true.. My girlfriend knocked on it and the SS.. "45k for a Chevy?" While she has an A4 Audi which was 45k..i'd much rather have a Chevy SS for same money with more features and power, but we're in the minority.. She also hates the Mustang and Camaro though so she'd never shop in the segment.

This happens a lot and not just with Chevy. A lot of people see anything over 40K for a Chevy/Ford/Dodge as crazy and would rather go spend money elsewhere

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by ChefBorOzzy

You can also spend near 40k for a Fusion or an Accord.. So it's all cars that are getting more expensive.

Indeed. I mean, come on - we are seeing $60K-$70K SUVs, $25K Motorcycles, etc. EVERY thing you look at costs a lot more.

Way back when, I bought a new '73 Z/28 in March of 1973. I paid ~$4300 out the door for it. I just priced a new 1SS at $40K out the door.

So buying a 1SS Camaro today with all it offers performance-wise at even somewhere around $40,000 plus tax is really a good buy when you compare today's wages to cost.

The low sales of the other trim levels are hurting the numbers probably more than anything. I don't think anyone disputes the performance value for the dollar of the Camaro, especially the SS models.

[sprtplt]

Originally Posted by Raven87

So buying a 1SS Camaro today with all it offers performance-wise at even somewhere around $40,000 plus tax is really a good buy when you compare today's wages to cost.

.

No, it isn't. Using any "official" inflation calculator today's 1ss "should" be
$26,000. Blah blah blah there is more content in today's cars, yes, but the relative sticker shock and more importantly, the ability to purchase, is reality.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by sprtplt

No, it isn't. Using any "official" inflation calculator today's 1ss "should" be
$26,000. Blah blah blah there is more content in today's cars, yes, but the relative sticker shock and more importantly, the ability to purchase, is reality.

I completely disagree. You CAN buy a ~$26000 Camaro TODAY that will run rings around the $4300 Z/28 with 245 HP that I bought in 1973 - on any given track.

A $40K SS is so much MORE car than that '73 Z/28 could ever hope to be so yes, it IS a good value for the performance you get.

And those same calculators say that while I was making $3.35/hr in 1973 I should only be making $18.19 today. I make much, much more than that. Even if I was in the same position today I was in back in '73 I would be making well north of $30/hr.

It is all relative to what you want to spend versus what you can AFFORD to spend.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by Raven87

I completely disagree. You CAN buy a ~$26000 Camaro TODAY that will run rings around the $4300 Z/28 with 245 HP that I bought in 1973 - on any given track.

A $40K SS is so much MORE car than that '73 Z/28 could ever hope to be so yes, it IS a good value for the performance you get.

To be fair Raven, you are comparing a Z/28 to a 1LT. Sure the performance may be equal but the fact is the tag on the car is not. All things should and mostly do perform better than their earlier generation counterparts but unlike most segments in which the prices drop or stay the same as tech becomes cheaper and more readily available, cars seem to be an enigma wherein they charge premiums for including tech that is in no way groundbreaking. Just look at the prices of the PDR and NAV. This is NOT new or groundbreaking tech.

Holy run on sentence Batman...LOL

[aestil]

Originally Posted by Thor142

To be fair Raven, you are comparing a Z/28 to a 1LT. Sure the performance may be equal but the fact is the tag on the car is not. All things should and mostly do perform better than their earlier generation counterparts but unlike most segments in which the prices drop or stay the same as tech becomes cheaper and more readily available, cars seem to be an enigma wherein they charge premiums for including tech that is in no way groundbreaking. Just look at the prices of the PDR and NAV. This is NOT new or groundbreaking tech.

Holy run on sentence Batman...LOL

The NAV system is a $500 option? That seems pretty reasonable to me considering the development of the system and integration with the HUD and testing of the GPS and what I assume is long term support of the maps in the Nav system.

Not sure what PDR really brings to the table but I am not personally interested in that one so I haven't given thought to the value proposition on that one.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by aestil

The NAV system is a $500 option? That seems pretty reasonable to me considering the development of the system and integration with the HUD and testing of the GPS and what I assume is long term support of the maps in the Nav system.

Not sure what PDR really brings to the table but I am not personally interested in that one so I haven't given thought to the value proposition on that one.

There's no big deal in integrating nav into a touch screen system on a car. It's 2016. I can buy a smartphone for $100 that has 10 times more tech than Mylink with nav. That's my point. This is OLD tech at this point. But auto manufacturers still charge a sup[er premium for it. I'm not just picking on Chevy here either.

[SpookShow'84]

Even having NAV as a priced option now is ridiculous. It is ancient tech at this point.

It's like charging sliced bread at $5 a piece.

Edit: $5 a piece and everyone owns a bakery.

[CapeCruisin]

Originally Posted by SpookShow'84

Even having NAV as a priced option now is ridiculous. It is ancient tech at this point.

It's like charging sliced bread at $5 a piece.

Edit: $5 a piece and everyone owns a bakery.

Must be some damn good bread.

[Posaune]

The sales problem as of right now is not with the SS, it is with the LT trims. SS is still doing pretty well with the typical early adopter SS buyer (i.e. enthusiasts). Those sales will trail off and settle into what had been about 20-25K units per year.

For the LT, GM has to fight a few perception that the average buyer has to get them into that trim.
1) The 6th Gen looks very similar to the 5th Gen. Yes, we on here know it is all new and can spot the differences when looking but does the average buyer see it as an all new gen or does it look like an update to the 5th gen? No, to them it looks like an update with a price hike.
2) This "updated" Camaro has a base 4cyl engine with less power than last years base Camaro V6 and has a price increase. Again, average Joe/Jane see V6>4cyl (even if it has a turbo). Especially when there wasn't a big FE bump between 5th gen V6 and 6th gen 4T. Perceived as getting less engine and about the same FE for more money. Verses the Mustang which does offer the V6 as the base engine with limited options, it gets those V6>4cyl people in the door, then the dealer can try to sell their very well branded ECOBOOST engine as an upgrade. The brand image created around ECOBOOST helps defeat the 4cyl perception for Ford.