[Posaune]

Originally Posted by aestil

@Posaune How confident are you in those Cars.com numbers?

I narrowed my search a bit and looked at 6 Chevy dealerships near me in Los Angeles. 330 Camaros in inventory.

I looked at 6 Ford Dealerships in a similar area and came up with 607 Mustangs on lots.

I'm assuming that the dealership websites have accurate counts for cars that they have in inventory. These inventory levels seem to really be the opposite of what Cars.com inventory levels are saying.

For my area it is pretty close. When I filter the search down to 25 miles around my zip for new 2016-2017 Camaro, I get 76 hits from the two closest dealerships. Both dealerships are 12 miles from me in opposite directions. When I check the dealer websites, one has 51 and the other has 30. The extra five the dealership has listed on their site are cars that are in transit. They don't list them on cars.com until they actually hit the lot. Like I said earlier, by tracking the cars available throughout the month and filtering by listing date I was able to estimate Junes sales fairly close. I was off by about 20 units IIRC.

Originally Posted by z28guy30

Everyone talks about how the 6th generation Camaro has not strayed too far in terms of styling from the 5th generation Camaro, but has anyone paid attention to BMW? Every BMW model for the past decade or more looks pretty much the same. lol

Apples and oranges mate. Different segments with different buyers.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by Tmcbigblue

I could care less if someone like the mustang better than the Camaro. Hell I like the new mustangs and almost bought one. I bought I v8 because I wanted a performance car. I'm not talking trunk size or how you can see out of it. Straight up performance. and the the Camaro is better driving, handling, accelerating hands down. Now I'm talking performance, that what I was looking for. I would never criticize someone who has a mustang and likes their car. Different strokes for different folks. All thee are awesome cars! I'm just tired of hearing they are overpriced because they aren't for the performance they provide. They are bargains really. Def not a car for everyone though.

For the average pony car buyer, performance isn't a top consideration. For what is important to them, it is overpriced and or lacking vs. the competition. The competition includes way more than the Challenger and mustang.

[mechramc]

Been following this thread as well as the same thread on Mustang6 forums. First off, people here seem to be respectful of Mustangs and Challengers whereas there seem to be all kinds of jerks over there.

People will be people I guess...

That aside, me being a potential buyer who is planning on getting a SS, is still finding it a hard lump to swallow even though I will eventually do it, because I just love the car. I am in my early 30s, and to me, getting a V8 is my first step into the crazy world of fast cars, and I also know that this will be my last. It will be my last because I will soon end up getting a bigger car for family, kids, pets, etc..I even have the Jag F-Pace earmarked for 2018.

So my problem with the pricing of Camaro vs the others is that for someone who is going to drive the car daily and may hit the tracks about 5 or 6 times a year - why do I not get the option to just get a 1SS for the same price as the Mustang GT? With Mags and NPP, I can justify the 1SS at its current price. But since there is no V8 variant which matches the GT - I do have to bite the bullet and go for a 1 SS for about 4k more.

I know everyone says that you are paying for the better car, handling, etc....And I AGREE with that. But what about that slot which is not being filled by GM? Why not knock off a few more features from the 1SS, and at least offer the car at that price point as mustang GT....They could add them as a premium package and offer it as 1SS premium to compare with the GT premium.

This is why so many people go get a 33K GT.....Because now they have a V8....and they can now do whatever the heck they want with it - They can track it by spending 4k more...they can use it as a DD with no additional stuff. They could add a bigger display, HUD, etc. etc...

I mean....why not have a base V8 to match Ford's price point, when you know you have the better car? Then, the only people who will go to Ford will be the ones not happy with the space inside the car and the visibility.....Maybe a few more years and finally we can have a Camaro with good visibility....

Anyway, just my two cents...sorry if I rambled on and on...not much of a forum poster

[nvrsatisfied]

Originally Posted by mechramc

Been following this thread as well as the same thread on Mustang6 forums. First off, people here seem to be respectful of Mustangs and Challengers whereas there seem to be all kinds of jerks over there.

People will be people I guess...

That aside, me being a potential buyer who is planning on getting a SS, is still finding it a hard lump to swallow even though I will eventually do it, because I just love the car. I am in my early 30s, and to me, getting a V8 is my first step into the crazy world of fast cars, and I also know that this will be my last. It will be my last because I will soon end up getting a bigger car for family, kids, pets, etc..I even have the Jag F-Pace earmarked for 2018.

So my problem with the pricing of Camaro vs the others is that for someone who is going to drive the car daily and may hit the tracks about 5 or 6 times a year - why do I not get the option to just get a 1SS for the same price as the Mustang GT? With Mags and NPP, I can justify the 1SS at its current price. But since there is no V8 variant which matches the GT - I do have to bite the bullet and go for a 1 SS for about 4k more.

I know everyone says that you are paying for the better car, handling, etc....And I AGREE with that. But what about that slot which is not being filled by GM? Why not knock off a few more features from the 1SS, and at least offer the car at that price point as mustang GT....They could add them as a premium package and offer it as 1SS premium to compare with the GT premium.

This is why so many people go get a 33K GT.....Because now they have a V8....and they can now do whatever the heck they want with it - They can track it by spending 4k more...they can use it as a DD with no additional stuff. They could add a bigger display, HUD, etc. etc...

I mean....why not have a base V8 to match Ford's price point, when you know you have the better car? Then, the only people who will go to Ford will be the ones not happy with the space inside the car and the visibility.....Maybe a few more years and finally we can have a Camaro with good visibility....

Anyway, just my two cents...sorry if I rambled on and on...not much of a forum poster

You didn't ramble, you made very valid points. A more bare bones SS would be a great alternative not just for price, but for those that would prefer to actually upgrade the suspension to their liking. I much preferred the old days where you could order options individually, without having to buy more expensive packages. Most people give up an option they want because they have to pay for a package that includes things they don't want in order to get it.

[Raven87]

So here's a point I did not see made before.

GM has stated they have increased their margin on the Camaro - and possibly other vehicles - in order to increase profits. Yet, when the cars do not sell and they have to produce incentives, is that not counter intuitive to the original goal of increased profits? Because we are on the cusp of seeing this happen.

Dodge made some seemingly similar mistakes with the Gen 5 Viper. First, they rolled out the car and had issues with quality and availability. People who had ordered cars were waiting and waiting and paid original MSRPs of over $130K. Sales fell out of bed due to both issues, quality and price. So, they ended up dropping MSRP by several thousand just to try to get buyers back in the showrooms. But the damage was done - and, they are killing the Viper.

Yes, Viper is a halo car. Yes, it probably had a finite lifespan. But still, management makes decisions about things that on paper may seem like sound financial moves but in the real world of the car buyer are horrible mistakes.

The 6G Camaro is an awesome machine but this decision on raising prices to increase profits when GM cannot be satisfied with a slightly less profit - on the surface - smacks of corporate greed. They want the Camaro Buyer to pony up some cash to pay for other historically poor management decisions.

While GM may say it is to strengthen the brand, it really comes down to making more money for them by taking it from the buyer's wallets. And as we've seen, the buyer's are not following through with GM's wishes. The 'Expected increase in demand' for the summer months went the other way.

*crickets*

Isn't a profit - regardless of the amount - still a profit? Isn't (for example) $2000 profit for a sold vehicle better than wishing you had $3700 profit per vehicle with the car sitting on the lot, only moving when you toss out low interest and a $1500 rebate, etc just to move it?

Profit is not a dirty word but LOSS is. And yes, a business needs to make 'X' dollars of profit on a sale to have enough to keep the lights on, pay the employees, re-invest in the business, and for R&D to develop new products to sell - all at a profit. But if it takes a certain dollar amount of cost (which includes the costs for R&D, employees, material to make the car, licensing, governmental fees, etc - all are part of the 'cost') plus a certain amount of profit to stay in business, just simply wanting 'more' because you want to get more when clearly the market says, 'You're not getting more', is that not a bad decision?

Any market will only bear a certain and realistic amount of profit built into a product's price. And at the end of the day, a product is only worth what someone is willing to pay. If it is overpriced, it will not sell. If it is a high demand item, it will sell at a premium. If it is priced right with what buyers see as worth the cost of investment, it will sell well with a reasonable on the lot inventory.

In the last scenario (priced right), both the business and its customers will be happy.

But at what point has profit become simple greed and it causes the buyers to go somewhere else?



I think GM believed its own marketing research hype and thought the 6G Camaro would sell well and in higher demand based on it being a good car. And this is for all the trim levels, not the 2SS. And that is where GM went wrong in my view. It overestimated demand at the current pricing and now sales are NOT where they should be. Their 'expected increase in demand' went the opposite direction.

And we've seen them do this before.

Will GM ever admit that? Probably not in so many words. But when you see incentives rolled out and fire sale discounts, those are the words.

We shall see.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by mechramc

Been following this thread as well as the same thread on Mustang6 forums. First off, people here seem to be respectful of Mustangs and Challengers whereas there seem to be all kinds of jerks over there.

People will be people I guess...

That aside, me being a potential buyer who is planning on getting a SS, is still finding it a hard lump to swallow even though I will eventually do it, because I just love the car. I am in my early 30s, and to me, getting a V8 is my first step into the crazy world of fast cars, and I also know that this will be my last. It will be my last because I will soon end up getting a bigger car for family, kids, pets, etc..I even have the Jag F-Pace earmarked for 2018.

So my problem with the pricing of Camaro vs the others is that for someone who is going to drive the car daily and may hit the tracks about 5 or 6 times a year - why do I not get the option to just get a 1SS for the same price as the Mustang GT? With Mags and NPP, I can justify the 1SS at its current price. But since there is no V8 variant which matches the GT - I do have to bite the bullet and go for a 1 SS for about 4k more.

I know everyone says that you are paying for the better car, handling, etc....And I AGREE with that. But what about that slot which is not being filled by GM? Why not knock off a few more features from the 1SS, and at least offer the car at that price point as mustang GT....They could add them as a premium package and offer it as 1SS premium to compare with the GT premium.

This is why so many people go get a 33K GT.....Because now they have a V8....and they can now do whatever the heck they want with it - They can track it by spending 4k more...they can use it as a DD with no additional stuff. They could add a bigger display, HUD, etc. etc...

I mean....why not have a base V8 to match Ford's price point, when you know you have the better car? Then, the only people who will go to Ford will be the ones not happy with the space inside the car and the visibility.....Maybe a few more years and finally we can have a Camaro with good visibility....

Anyway, just my two cents...sorry if I rambled on and on...not much of a forum poster

I feel the same way as you from a buyer's perspective but from a business perspective you have to see it differently. You basically said it yourself, you are going to bite the bullet and cough up the money for the more expensive 1SS because deep down you know it is the better car and the price is worth it for what you get. That is precisely what a company wants to have happen when the charge more than the competition. Some are willing to pay more as long as it is justified. This buying process happens in our minds everyday with all types of products. For example, I can order a steak at the Sizzler or one from Ruth's Chris Steakhouse. Some will pay for the improved quality, taste and experience over the tough run of the mill steak. Why do some folks spend $5 or more for a cup of Starbucks coffee when you can buy a cup of coffee for cheaper?

The Camaro was built to compete. I mean the name Camaro actually means "a small vicious animal that eats mustangs." I mean how could a car live up to that name if it didn't outperform the Mustang.

[mt3130]

The fact that GM is offering 20% off MSRP on nearly the entire lineup would likely agree with your assessment.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I feel the same way as you from a buyer's perspective but from a business perspective you have to see it differently. You basically said it yourself, you are going to bite the bullet and cough up the money for the more expensive 1SS because deep down you know it is the better car and the price is worth it for what you get. That is precisely what a company wants to have happen when the charge more than the competition. Some are willing to pay more as long as it is justified. This buying process happens in our minds everyday with all types of products. For example, I can order a steak at the Sizzler or one from Ruth's Chris Steakhouse. Some will pay for the improved quality, taste and experience over the tough run of the mill steak. Why do some folks spend $5 or more for a cup of Starbucks coffee when you can buy a cup of coffee for cheaper?

The Camaro was built to compete. I mean the name Camaro actually means "a small vicious animal that eats mustangs." I mean how could a car live up to that name if it didn't outperform the Mustang.

The only flaw in what you are saying is the average consumer is not seeing the Camaro as a "Ruth's Chris" steak. You have to consider that those of us on forums analyzing every detail of the car and it's performance metrics are NOT average consumers. If Ruth's Chris committed to an order of 50,000lbs of beef and halfway through the fiscal year had only sold 10,000 something would change pretty quick.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Raven87

So here's a point I did not see made before.

GM has stated they have increased their margin on the Camaro - and possibly other vehicles - in order to increase profits. Yet, when the cars do not sell and they have to produce incentives, is that not counter intuitive to the original goal of increased profits? Because we are on the cusp of seeing this happen.

Dodge made some seemingly similar mistakes with the Gen 5 Viper. First, they rolled out the car and had issues with quality and availability. People who had ordered cars were waiting and waiting and paid original MSRPs of over $130K. Sales fell out of bed due to both issues, quality and price. So, they ended up dropping MSRP by several thousand just to try to get buyers back in the showrooms. But the damage was done - and, they are killing the Viper.

Yes, Viper is a halo car. Yes, it probably had a finite lifespan. But still, management makes decisions about things that on paper may seem like sound financial moves but in the real world of the car buyer are horrible mistakes.

The 6G Camaro is an awesome machine but this decision on raising prices to increase profits when GM cannot be satisfied with a slightly less profit - on the surface - smacks of corporate greed. They want the Camaro Buyer to pony up some cash to pay for other historically poor management decisions.

While GM may say it is to strengthen the brand, it really comes down to making more money for them by taking it from the buyer's wallets. And as we've seen, the buyer's are not following through with GM's wishes. The 'Expected increase in demand' for the summer months went the other way.

*crickets*

Isn't a profit - regardless of the amount - still a profit? Isn't (for example) $2000 profit for a sold vehicle better than wishing you had $3700 profit per vehicle with the car sitting on the lot, only moving when you toss out low interest and a $1500 rebate, etc just to move it?

Profit is not a dirty word but LOSS is. And yes, a business needs to make 'X' dollars of profit on a sale to have enough to keep the lights on, pay the employees, re-invest in the business, and for R&D to develop new products to sell - all at a profit. But if it takes a certain dollar amount of cost (which includes the costs for R&D, employees, material to make the car, licensing, governmental fees, etc - all are part of the 'cost') plus a certain amount of profit to stay in business, just simply wanting 'more' because you want to get more when clearly the market says, 'You're not getting more', is that not a bad decision?

Any market will only bear a certain and realistic amount of profit built into a product's price. And at the end of the day, a product is only worth what someone is willing to pay. If it is overpriced, it will not sell. If it is a high demand item, it will sell at a premium. If it is priced right with what buyers see as worth the cost of investment, it will sell well with a reasonable on the lot inventory.

In the last scenario (priced right), both the business and its customers will be happy.

But at what point has profit become simple greed and it causes the buyers to go somewhere else?



I think GM believed its own marketing research hype and thought the 6G Camaro would sell well and in higher demand based on it being a good car. And this is for all the trim levels, not the 2SS. And that is where GM went wrong in my view. It overestimated demand at the current pricing and now sales are NOT where they should be. Their 'expected increase in demand' went the opposite direction.

And we've seen them do this before.

Will GM ever admit that? Probably not in so many words. But when you see incentives rolled out and fire sale discounts, those are the words.

We shall see.

Good points. I think it depends on you perspective. The car may seem overpriced based for traditional Camaro and pony car buyers but it is a steal if you compare it to something higher end. I always tend to compare everything to the SS, which I should not do because that only represents 20% of Camaro sales anyway. The sales volume problem is as a result of the 1LT and 2LT sales.

So, as it relates to the SS, if you are not hung up on status brands then the Camaro is an absolute steal, hence the BMW, Audi, etc. comparisons. If you are looking for the cheapest v8 then the Camaro is the most expensive of the bunch.

What we should really focus this thread on is 1LT and 2LT T4 and V6 models vs the competition since that will be 80% of sales.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Good points. I think it depends on you perspective. The car may seem overpriced based for traditional Camaro and pony car buyers but it is a steal if you compare it to something higher end. I always tend to compare everything to the SS, which I should not do because that only represents 20% of Camaro sales anyway. The sales volume problem is as a result of the 1LT and 2LT sales.

So, as it relates to the SS, if you are not hung up on status brands then the Camaro is an absolute steal, hence the BMW, Audi, etc. comparisons. If you are looking for the cheapest v8 then the Camaro is the most expensive of the bunch.

What we should really focus this thread on is 1LT and 2LT T4 and V6 models vs the competition since that will be 80% of sales.

I think at any trim level the Camaro is a well built car. And I completely agree - the sales of the lower trim levels (or lack thereof) are really hurting overall sales numbers. A 1SS Camaro is a LOT of performance value if performance is what you want most of all.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by Raven87

So here's a point I did not see made before.

GM has stated they have increased their margin on the Camaro - and possibly other vehicles - in order to increase profits. Yet, when the cars do not sell and they have to produce incentives, is that not counter intuitive to the original goal of increased profits? Because we are on the cusp of seeing this happen.

Dodge made some seemingly similar mistakes with the Gen 5 Viper. First, they rolled out the car and had issues with quality and availability. People who had ordered cars were waiting and waiting and paid original MSRPs of over $130K. Sales fell out of bed due to both issues, quality and price. So, they ended up dropping MSRP by several thousand just to try to get buyers back in the showrooms. But the damage was done - and, they are killing the Viper.

Yes, Viper is a halo car. Yes, it probably had a finite lifespan. But still, management makes decisions about things that on paper may seem like sound financial moves but in the real world of the car buyer are horrible mistakes.

The 6G Camaro is an awesome machine but this decision on raising prices to increase profits when GM cannot be satisfied with a slightly less profit - on the surface - smacks of corporate greed. They want the Camaro Buyer to pony up some cash to pay for other historically poor management decisions.

While GM may say it is to strengthen the brand, it really comes down to making more money for them by taking it from the buyer's wallets. And as we've seen, the buyer's are not following through with GM's wishes. The 'Expected increase in demand' for the summer months went the other way.

*crickets*

Isn't a profit - regardless of the amount - still a profit? Isn't (for example) $2000 profit for a sold vehicle better than wishing you had $3700 profit per vehicle with the car sitting on the lot, only moving when you toss out low interest and a $1500 rebate, etc just to move it?

Profit is not a dirty word but LOSS is. And yes, a business needs to make 'X' dollars of profit on a sale to have enough to keep the lights on, pay the employees, re-invest in the business, and for R&D to develop new products to sell - all at a profit. But if it takes a certain dollar amount of cost (which includes the costs for R&D, employees, material to make the car, licensing, governmental fees, etc - all are part of the 'cost') plus a certain amount of profit to stay in business, just simply wanting 'more' because you want to get more when clearly the market says, 'You're not getting more', is that not a bad decision?

Any market will only bear a certain and realistic amount of profit built into a product's price. And at the end of the day, a product is only worth what someone is willing to pay. If it is overpriced, it will not sell. If it is a high demand item, it will sell at a premium. If it is priced right with what buyers see as worth the cost of investment, it will sell well with a reasonable on the lot inventory.

In the last scenario (priced right), both the business and its customers will be happy.

But at what point has profit become simple greed and it causes the buyers to go somewhere else?



I think GM believed its own marketing research hype and thought the 6G Camaro would sell well and in higher demand based on it being a good car. And this is for all the trim levels, not the 2SS. And that is where GM went wrong in my view. It overestimated demand at the current pricing and now sales are NOT where they should be. Their 'expected increase in demand' went the opposite direction.

And we've seen them do this before.

Will GM ever admit that? Probably not in so many words. But when you see incentives rolled out and fire sale discounts, those are the words.

We shall see.

Good points. I believe we are seeing a repeat of what happened with the ATS and CTS. Both were over built and undersold despite performing as good or better than the other cars in their class. GM expected stronger sales because they were the best handling sport sedans in their class. It didn't happen and sales quickly fell off eventually resulting in such a large backlog of inventory GM had to idle the plant for three weeks.

Now, it isn't exactly apples to apples comparison but the underlying mindset from GM is the same and the outcome is headed in that direction.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by Thor142

The only flaw in what you are saying is the average consumer is not seeing the Camaro as a "Ruth's Chris" steak. You have to consider that those of us on forums analyzing every detail of the car and it's performance metrics are NOT average consumers. If Ruth's Chris committed to an order of 50,000lbs of beef and halfway through the fiscal year had only sold 10,000 something would change pretty quick.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by Thor142

The only flaw in what you are saying is the average consumer is not seeing the Camaro as a "Ruth's Chris" steak. You have to consider that those of us on forums analyzing every detail of the car and it's performance metrics are NOT average consumers. If Ruth's Chris committed to an order of 50,000lbs of beef and halfway through the fiscal year had only sold 10,000 something would change pretty quick.

So very, very true. Good post.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Thor142

The only flaw in what you are saying is the average consumer is not seeing the Camaro as a "Ruth's Chris" steak. You have to consider that those of us on forums analyzing every detail of the car and it's performance metrics are NOT average consumers. If Ruth's Chris committed to an order of 50,000lbs of beef and halfway through the fiscal year had only sold 10,000 something would change pretty quick.

Agreed, which reminds me of what the Motortrend folks said when they did the SS vs BMW M4 head to head. "The biggest challenge they have with the Camaro is the badge." Maybe they think they can take it up market but maybe it will be impossible to shake the pony car image and stigma associated with it. I am fine with it because I tend to be a bang for your buck type of buyer as opposed to paying for a status car.

You are right, most average buyers are going to walk into the dealership and say "you want me to pay $45k for a Camaro?" And they will think they should buy more " status brands" with that much money. Lexus, BMW, Audi, etc.