[Mountain]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

Honestly, there isn't a world in which I would choose a Coyote motor over a LS3, an LSX, or even an LT1/LT4. Sorry, but it's just not worth the headache. I'd rather have power as soon as I depress the pedal. There is a reason why people use the LS motor so much. They just work, even out of a junkyard.

As far as the sound aspect, I'll give you that they do sound good. Mustangs have always done one specific thing right, and that is the sound. Both the exhaust and the car itself is just noisy enough to let people know what it is. That is still to me the one thing GM has failed to get right.

Just me and my opinion.

I understand yours, though, too.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

So spending a grand or two replacing a rotating assembly on an engine that doesn't need it is a good move, but spending an extra $750 for cams is a big deal? LOL.

And for a guy whose worked on so many engines I find it laughable that having to change an additional 16 valve springs would bother you so much...BTW very few Coyote cams require a valve spring change to begin with, you're LT1 will require you to change out 16 springs as well as drop the oil pan or pull the whole motor...don't get too tired oldman.

such a cheap and easy job , yet you're still running the stock cam

I’ve only built a few engines, myself, but I’ve been through schooling and trade shows/seminars about engine building, machine, airflow, mechanical engineering, along with racing things...

Honestly, if you’re messing with cams, you better be, at least, considering valve springs and maybe even retainers or valves. Mostly springs... There’s a lot going on there that needs to be considered.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by oldman

Try a Challenger if you want to say is this an Accord?

Yeah, those are pretty terrible too....

Originally Posted by Chadicus

The 2018 sounds pretty good but 15-17 stock exhaust was awful. 60dB of of putrid. I agree the Camaro could use a little more pop though.

That's pretty much all I'm getting at. They just sound much more subdued than I would prefer. Meanwhile, most Mustangs drive by you and you know it's a Mustang. I mean, cmon, I drive a 70k car and it sounds terrible at idle and just basic driving. Only when its WOT does it ever sound great.

Originally Posted by Mountain

Just me and my opinion.

I understand yours, though, too.

Indeed, the differences are what makes the car world so much fun...

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by Mountain

I’ve only built a few engines, myself, but I’ve been through schooling and trade shows/seminars about engine building, machine, airflow, mechanical engineering, along with racing things...

Honestly, if you’re messing with cams, you better be, at least, considering valve springs and maybe even retainers or valves. Mostly springs... There’s a lot going on there that needs to be considered.

you'd be right in pretty much any OHV motor. In the Coyote due to design of the VCT and the lightweight valve gear you dont need or want stiff springs. I suppose titanium retainers could be of value in an extreme situation but for 99.8% of people its wasted money as the stock valve train will handle what the cams require.

[FastCarFanBoy]

...err double post

[oldman]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

So spending a grand or two replacing a rotating assembly on an engine that doesn't need it is a good move, but spending an extra $750 for cams is a big deal? LOL.

The pistons for an LT1 will allow it make over 700 RWHP (how many people really need this?), it is a longevity mod, don't know who well just filling the ring gaps will work, maybe just fine. The cams for the 5.0 are a waste of money and labor, that. I don't know of anybody that has blown up a LT1 on boost either. I'm sure they are out there, my LT1 on boost is just fine, I'm on my third soon to be 4th set of tires in 16,000 miles... and it is not from burning out which I never do, it is all the power trying to get to the ground..... which never happens... dunno.

point is as already stated it is NO BIG DEAL whether the long block is "stock", a complete non-issue. The 5.0 is expensive and difficult to work on hence the long block = "stock" on the vast majority of builds. To me and this is just me, I would always build a long block before anything but the most minimal boost. It is just the way I rolll. $1000 is cheap insurance, I wish I added it when I did heads and cam, I did not, as I thought I would be happy with stock P1sc, not really, but happy for a few years. Well it was 1 month before the D1X went on...LOL, stuff happens. Now I'm stuck on "low" boost till the forged engine goes in. Does it need it? Dunno, but I beat on the car and Texas is at 111 degrees so heat is an issue.

IMO, at the 700+ RWHP range, a few thousand is just a rounding error. If I did not have $10,000 just sitting around AND a spare car, my Camaro would be stone stock.

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

And for a guy whose worked on so many engines I find it laughable that having to change an additional 16 valve springs would bother you so much

You complete forgot about the 3 extra cams, 3 extra cam gears, a whole mess of sliders and tensioners... I know for you it is "not much harder"

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

such a cheap and easy job , yet you're still running the stock cam

Must be thinking of somebody else, I've already changed my cam by myself, no issues. Don't tell anyone but the pan does NOT have to be dropped.
1) don't pin the tensioner, it can move even further if not pinned
2) pry the chain backwards, not forward .


BTW. I don't troll the Mustang sites, but I would be intrested in any 5.2 NA builds, I absolutely love the 350 and the engine.... My dream car is this:
https://revologycars.com/car/1966-shelby-gt350/

[oldman]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

While I (hate to) agree (with you) that a cam swap isn't that difficult, I do have to disagree with you about the whole valve springs thing. I've found 2 things of note when swapping cams on an OHC engine. One is the "valve spring upgrade RECOMMENDED" warning and the other is the "valve spring upgrade REQUIRED" warning. Both of these warnings mean that you will have to upgrade the valve springs. Usually the one with the "recommended" warning absolutely WILL require them to be upgraded. And the cams that are compatible with the stock valve springs are not worth the swap anyway. At least that is how it was back some time ago. Maybe these 3rd Gen Coyote engines come with extra strong valve springs, I don't know. But experience has taught me that if you're doing a cam on a OHC engine and you want it to be better than stock or worth the effort then you are going to be swapping out those springs at one point or another.

If you stick with the AFM cams, probably the LS7 spring or similar will be fine, the lifters don't really like a whole lot of spring pressure. You can get some pretty big duration AFM compatible cams.

Cam, springs, and filter got 58 rwhp on a Vette
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...-lt1-cam-swap/

to my mind it looks like a 7000 RPM engine still AFM compatible.


I would have stuck with an AFM cam, but Pray sold me a package with a spec'd cam that was no way AFM compatible.


We have all see the 5.0 vs LS3, I don't think the new 5.0 vs LT1 will be all that different.
https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...-dyno-results/

[oldman]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

you'd be right in pretty much any OHV motor. In the Coyote due to design of the VCT and the lightweight valve gear you dont need or want stiff springs. I suppose titanium retainers could be of value in an extreme situation but for 99.8% of people its wasted money as the stock valve train will handle what the cams require.

The DOHC 10,000 RPM that I own and race all need the whole 9 yards, cams, belt, tensioner, springs, titanium retainers. Every 20Kmiles change the springs, every 40K miles change the cam, belt water pump and tensioner. Yes the cams break... I put out 300+ HP on pump gas, streetable on 2.0 liters NA. The valve and guides are good to about 70K. OH and I've never blow a short block, any failures are caused by DD street use and it is always a valve train failure and I've seen ever part fail, you gotta pay to play at this RPM range.

So IMO, if the factory springs are still working, you ain't got enough cam and RPM....

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by oldman

Cam, springs, and filter got 58 rwhp on a Vette
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...-lt1-cam-swap/

Comp Stage 3 NSR's are good for 40whp on a gen 1 Coyote so basically cams are worth slightly more on an LT1 n/a and arent worth the time/money on either motor if you plan on going with boost. You would have been better off skipping the cam and doing the internals since you planned on boost. Then again at some point you may have to do the cam on a LT1 even with boost do to DI fueling limits idk.

[ULTRAZLS1]

You can get 100 hp gain from a cam

I make more power than that car using bolt ons. That cam swap is a weak as hell example

Gains from a cam compared to a coyote isn’t even close. And if one wants to spend the money on pricey valvetrain to really hit some high rpm things get super ugly. You can’t lump cam together as one broad term. Results vary wildly depending on the grind etc

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

You can get 100 hp gain from a cam

I make more power than that car using bolt ons. That cam swap is a weak as hell example

Gains from a cam compared to a coyote isn’t even close. And if one wants to spend the money on pricey valvetrain to really hit some high rpm things get super ugly. You can’t lump cam together as one broad term. Results vary wildly depending on the grind etc

got a link for a cam only 100hp gain on a LT1? I've never run across one.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

got a link for a cam only 100hp gain on a LT1? I've never run across one.

I was being conservative

https://www.texas-speed.com/p-5417-t...-camshaft.aspx

110 hp gain from vvt-3 cam. And it’s not there biggest cam nor anywhere near max effort

Hills auto car put down 585 rwhp through a stalled auto with his track attack cam. He was at 465 before heads cam. And the converter costs people about 10rwhp. Head porting is worth 20-30 hp. So he gained roughly 100 rwhp from the cam

I’d say around 130 hp gain is possible with an average joe. More if you went nutty with a high dollar valvetrain and solid roller.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

I was being conservative

https://www.texas-speed.com/p-5417-t...-camshaft.aspx

110 hp gain from vvt-3 cam. And it’s not there biggest cam nor anywhere near max effort

Hills auto car put down 585 rwhp through a stalled auto with his track attack cam. He was at 465 before heads cam. And the converter costs people about 10rwhp. Head porting is worth 20-30 hp. So he gained roughly 100 rwhp from the cam

I’d say around 130 hp gain is possible with an average joe. More if you went nutty with a high dollar valvetrain and solid roller.

pretty interesting, I'd like to compare specs to something like the HPA Stage 3 cam as they got 100whp from their cam, long tubes and flex fuel kit but they dont specify fuel before or after. Comp Stage 3's are far from max effort on a 5.0 as they can retain full VCT sweep but no cam I have seen will make much more than 60whp on a Coyote.

I see BlackIce had to cut the pistons for that cam, did that require a rebalance?

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

pretty interesting, I'd like to compare specs to something like the HPA Stage 3 cam as they got 100whp from their cam, long tubes and flex fuel kit but they dont specify fuel before or after. Comp Stage 3's are far from max effort on a 5.0 as they can retain full VCT sweep but no cam I have seen will make much more than 60whp on a Coyote.

I see BlackIce had to cut the pistons for that cam, did that require a rebalance?

No he didn't that im aware of

P to V clearance isn't great on the lt1. Most of the larger cams require a flycut.

Im not familiar with HPAs cam. 40 of that gain was from the longtubes and e85. So it looks like a 60 rwhp cam I guess. Or 80-90 if they had flex before.

60 whp is worth doing for sure. Not sure I would waste the time for 30-40 considering whats involved. Id love to do a max effort heads cam coyote if I owned one. I would just hate how much low end would have to suffer. It would be fun im sure but having nothing down low daily driving or on small sprints would be annoying imo. From what ive seen to put down big numbers with cammed coyote you need 8000+ rpm and nothing at home below 3500 or so. Maybe the newer ones are different. I seen a 600hp + build livernois did that was pretty impressive.