[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

You're right, Ford doesn't care. People still buy what they offer for some odd reason. It is starting to wear on people though. I thought I was being harsh in some of my previous posts. Nothing I have said holds a candle to some of whats being said on their own forum right now about the lack of comparable offerings and situations like having to add coolers to the PP2 just so it can perform its intended purpose.

I honestly think while Ford doesn't care, they can only play this game so long until they are just looked at as the 3rd and last option.

I am a but upset myself, and have said that before. I love the GT350 looks and engine, and now that you can grab a lightly used 2017 for $50K, I REALLY want one. I have been eyeing a Lighting Blue one and keep trying to convince myself that mine would be fine, it wont bet just another sad customer story to go along with all the rest. UGH!!! Why Ford Why?!?!?!

Playing this 'sales' game wont always net a win for Ford. I think they are slowly being put on notice, I hope they listen.

That’s because a relatively small amount of people buy solely based off of one variable (performance). Generally speaking, looks get people into the dealer, and prices get people out with a new car. Checking the boxes in between (V8, convertible, comfort etc.) are what fill in everything between. If you aren’t able to check enough of the boxes, you won’t be profitable with that model lineup.

Ford could lose every measurable comparison with the new MY18 and still come out ahead in profitability. Magazines don’t sell cars….and performance alone doesn’t.

With the small car market still underperforming, I’m not sure Ford did enough for the MY18 (visually) to maintain buyers. But I digress, not trying to make this another sales thread.

The real question is…where the hell are all of the new GT buyers with their new ¼ mile times?

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Agreed, comparing times from diff days etc is futile. That said, it happens everywhere. There is a thread on M6G dedicated to JUST that in fact.

I am starting to see why you're hanging out here HAHAHAHA. Its made for some fun convo, that's for sure!!

And I'm good with comparing...just not good with conclusions based off of single data points. We do know that the 1LE and GT350R are fairly close though.

Originally Posted by hotlap

FYI... Guys modify Camaros too. When you pull up next to a SS you know it can bring it. With a GT you have to look if it's a PP2, A10, Drag Mode, Michelin Pilot Sport...

Honestly, I fear foxbodies more than any other car. They are cheap as hell, and even the shitty rustbuckets will often kick your ass.

And most races today are from a roll....where it's all about HP to weight ratio. I think even the base GT is going to give the SS a run for the money....be it with the A10 or the manual. If you're at a stoplight...it's going to come down to the person with the quicker RT.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Apology, Languna.

As it stands, it is the only comparison out there between the 1LE and GT350R with the same driver on the same track on the same day.

Your ability to believe track times on completely different days from a single data point...and yet not trust any 1/4 mile times from "off the lot" MY18 GTs amazes me. People see what they want to see.

No, you just read into what you wanna read into. I said that to be fair with any comparison between 2 different vehicles it is best if it is in the hands of a third party independent tester with both cars in stock configuration with no changes to either car whatsoever done at the same track and on the same day and with the same driver. That is what I said. I also said I don't count fast times from Camaro5 either. And I said that since these tests we have of the 18 MY GT is all we have for now then it is a good indicator of the car's potential but that you can't compare those times to magazine times. And I said that so far the 18 GT looks to be competitive against the SS. You missed all that because you're argumentative. And I said that if you count LMR's times and fast times then you have to count those against Camaro5 and other source's fast times and those are the ones I don't trust.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

That’s because a relatively small amount of people buy solely based off of one variable (performance). Generally speaking, looks get people into the dealer, and prices get people out with a new car. Checking the boxes in between (V8, convertible, comfort etc.) are what fill in everything between. If you aren’t able to check enough of the boxes, you won’t be profitable with that model lineup.

Ford could lose every measurable comparison with the new MY18 and still come out ahead in profitability. Magazines don’t sell cars….and performance alone doesn’t.

With the small car market still underperforming, I’m not sure Ford did enough for the MY18 (visually) to maintain buyers. But I digress, not trying to make this another sales thread.

The real question is…where the hell are all of the new GT buyers with their new ¼ mile times?

We have NO clue how much actual profit Ford makes on Mustangs, or how much Chevy makes on Camaros. Whether they have come out on top or will continue to is not something we can argue about. Sales #'s alone do not tell the whole story.

Dodge seems to be doing a GREAT job selling cars based on their Hipo straight line performance and HP numbers, so I think performace absolutely sells cars. Ford really did a great job designing the Mustang. I know I need to watch myself on this forum, but I think its better looking than the Camaro, and the public for the most part seems to agree. If that were not the case, and looks were more even like last Gen....then Ford would be hurting BAD.

It isnt just performance or price etc either. Ford keeps selling cars that can't do what they are supposed to, and people are going to lose trust. GT350 base and tech pack, PP2, ALL fail to perform their intended job of running on the tracks. That is bad for Ford no matter how you slice it, and enough of that press WILL drive potential buyers away. People talk only about price, but GM offers a full package car ready for action Day 1, and the Mustang needs mods immediately just to keep cool.

[Mr. Meh]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Honestly, I fear foxbodies more than any other car. They are cheap as hell, and even the shitty rustbuckets will often kick your ass.

Honda CR-X that's way too clean and very eager to run you.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

There will always be crossover to some degree…hell, there is GT350R crossover to the corvette.

And when Ford had the chance to prove the R could run with the Corvette, Ford hid the R and sent a GT350TP. It got its ass kicked. C&D

That what has been frustrating this gen. Never the right match. SS-1LE vs GT350 or C7 Z51 vs GT350R...

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

That’s because a relatively small amount of people buy solely based off of one variable (performance). Generally speaking, looks get people into the dealer, and prices get people out with a new car. Checking the boxes in between (V8, convertible, comfort etc.) are what fill in everything between. If you aren’t able to check enough of the boxes, you won’t be profitable with that model lineup.

Ford could lose every measurable comparison with the new MY18 and still come out ahead in profitability. Magazines don’t sell cars….and performance alone doesn’t.

With the small car market still underperforming, I’m not sure Ford did enough for the MY18 (visually) to maintain buyers. But I digress, not trying to make this another sales thread.

The real question is…where the hell are all of the new GT buyers with their new ¼ mile times?

Yet here you are again arguing about the Mustang's performance. So which is it? If it doesn't matter then why do you keep trying to defend the lack of performance? Because it does matter. Much more than you wanna admit. If the GT did not get this bump in power then sales would decline rapidly. I don't care how much you like a car, nobody is gonna keep buying Mustangs if they continued to fall behind in performance.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I don't care how much you like a car, nobody is gonna keep buying Mustangs if they continued to fall behind in performance.

To counter your own point with your own point, the mustang GT has been pretty bad since you stated numerous times until 2011 but easily outsold Camaro even when the GT only had 260 hp lol

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

Nothing says a high trap speed like -1400 DA and a bad 60 ft

^ This, many don't realize that a shitty, spinning 60' will lend to a higher trap speed.

...plus of course a crazy good -1400 DA.

[J_Maher_AMG]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

1 - That wasn't Willow.
2 - It wasn't 1.55 seconds, it was 1.33 seconds.
3 - Like I said before, none of us have a problem with the R being faster than the SS 1LE on some tracks. It is a level up and more expensive. You are struggling because the R can't beat the Camaro that is in it's same tier and because on the same tier level no Mustang can beat a Camaro.

4 - You're comparing SS 1LE vs GT350R times on one track and trying to find a correlation between that and ZL1 vs GT350R track times on a completely different track. What kind of nonsense is that?

It was 1.66 seconds, 1:36.11 vs 1:37.77

Just a point to make though, the R has not had a single documented issue about overheating as you continue to post. The only model with overheating issues were the 2016 Tech Packs that never came with coolers, which was completely ridiculous on Ford’s part.

Equally, I have not heard of ANY issues of the ZL1 overheating. Seems as though they definitely have any and all cooling issues related to the LT4 in check on the Camaro platform. The only thing I read with any form of track durability issues was CarandDrivers first outing on track, they mentioned the ZL1’s brakes began to fade over the course of multiple laps. However that’s the only publication that I’ve seen anything of the like on, so I take that with a grain of salt as it might have been an isolated incident.

The willow springs time where the SS 1LE matched the R’s laptime weren’t on the same day as you are aware. However, we know the ZL1 could not match its own previous laptime on that day, suggesting that the track conditions were not as favourable that day, which Randy Pobst explicitly commented on and mentioned as well. Same track, same conditions, if the ZL1 was slower on that day than it’s capable of, the R was as well.

I think you hit the nail on the head before concerning the GT500. Being faced with the Demon and the ZL1 1LE I think Ford is in a hard spot as it’s going to be impossible to one up both a track star and the drag star. I personally believe they’re going to focus on the ZL1 1LE and track times however since it seems that track prowess and handling are more important to them nowadays in their top tier mustangs that drag racing.

As a GT350R owner I can assure everyone that the 2018 GT’s performance does not bother me a bit. Considering I plan to keep the car in my stable for 30+ years or longer (26 at the moment), I know there will be something faster around the corner every year. Hell, as BlaqWhole and I have discussed before, the ZL1 is over 10K cheaper MSRP here in Canada and is assuredly the faster and more versatile car. But that similar to anyone who has bought a Cayman or similar car for 70-80K that is slower than 30-40K mustangs and camaros. Sometimes certain aspects or attributes of a car are far more important to the buyer than having the fastest ride.

It’s nice though that the GT has finally caught up to the SS performance wise, but I think they may have screwed themselves based on the price increases. No doubt a large part of mustang sales over the years has been related to it being a relatively easier car to live with day to day but also decently cheaper. Now that they’ve upped the price so significantly to compete performance wise, I’m not so sure it’ll be such a hit. I suppose it is still probably more liveable considering the space and visibility, but Chevs interiors have really impressed me in recent years and is considerably higher quality than what is even in my top of the line R model. I’m OK with that as it’s not my daily driver, but it’s probably an important consideration for those planning on daily driving the GT or SS.

Fun times to be alive though no doubt, all these cars are incredible and we’re lucky they’re still being produced!

BTW, not a Ford nor a Mustang fanboy, first Ford and first mustang, and I don’t see myself buying another based on what I look for in a sports car haha “our” forum is kind of boring these days, the debates over here are far more... enthusiastic shall we say haha

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by shaffe

To counter your own point with your own point, the mustang GT has been pretty bad since you stated numerous times until 2011 but easily outsold Camaro even when the GT only had 260 hp lol

Yep...from 84-04 the mustang sold quite well while the faster Camaro dwindled into obscurity.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Yep...from 84-04 the mustang sold quite well while the faster Camaro dwindled into obscurity.

camaro was only faster in 93-94

more fuel for the fire...http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93893 if this breaks a forum rule I appoligize

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by J_Maher_AMG

It was 1.66 seconds, 1:36.11 vs 1:37.77

Just a point to make though, the R has not had a single documented issue about overheating as you continue to post. The only model with overheating issues were the 2016 Tech Packs that never came with coolers, which was completely ridiculous on Ford’s part.

Equally, I have not heard of ANY issues of the ZL1 overheating. Seems as though they definitely have any and all cooling issues related to the LT4 in check on the Camaro platform. The only thing I read with any form of track durability issues was CarandDrivers first outing on track, they mentioned the ZL1’s brakes began to fade over the course of multiple laps. However that’s the only publication that I’ve seen anything of the like on, so I take that with a grain of salt as it might have been an isolated incident.

The willow springs time where the SS 1LE matched the R’s laptime weren’t on the same day as you are aware. However, we know the ZL1 could not match its own previous laptime on that day, suggesting that the track conditions were not as favourable that day, which Randy Pobst explicitly commented on and mentioned as well. Same track, same conditions, if the ZL1 was slower on that day than it’s capable of, the R was as well.

I think you hit the nail on the head before concerning the GT500. Being faced with the Demon and the ZL1 1LE I think Ford is in a hard spot as it’s going to be impossible to one up both a track star and the drag star. I personally believe they’re going to focus on the ZL1 1LE and track times however since it seems that track prowess and handling are more important to them nowadays in their top tier mustangs that drag racing.

As a GT350R owner I can assure everyone that the 2018 GT’s performance does not bother me a bit. Considering I plan to keep the car in my stable for 30+ years or longer (26 at the moment), I know there will be something faster around the corner every year. Hell, as BlaqWhole and I have discussed before, the ZL1 is over 10K cheaper MSRP here in Canada and is assuredly the faster and more versatile car. But that similar to anyone who has bought a Cayman or similar car for 70-80K that is slower than 30-40K mustangs and camaros. Sometimes certain aspects or attributes of a car are far more important to the buyer than having the fastest ride.

It’s nice though that the GT has finally caught up to the SS performance wise, but I think they may have screwed themselves based on the price increases. No doubt a large part of mustang sales over the years has been related to it being a relatively easier car to live with day to day but also decently cheaper. Now that they’ve upped the price so significantly to compete performance wise, I’m not so sure it’ll be such a hit. I suppose it is still probably more liveable considering the space and visibility, but Chevs interiors have really impressed me in recent years and is considerably higher quality than what is even in my top of the line R model. I’m OK with that as it’s not my daily driver, but it’s probably an important consideration for those planning on daily driving the GT or SS.

Fun times to be alive though no doubt, all these cars are incredible and we’re lucky they’re still being produced!

BTW, not a Ford nor a Mustang fanboy, first Ford and first mustang, and I don’t see myself buying another based on what I look for in a sports car haha “our” forum is kind of boring these days, the debates over here are far more... enthusiastic shall we say haha

Great first post. The R is a beautiful car.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

To counter your own point with your own point, the mustang GT has been pretty bad since you stated numerous times until 2011 but easily outsold Camaro even when the GT only had 260 hp lol

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Yep...from 84-04 the mustang sold quite well while the faster Camaro dwindled into obscurity.

Price played a contributing factor. Back then you could get a fully loaded GT for less than a base Z28. Plus the Mustang had other models that kept up with the Z28. And like I said before, the Mustang has historically outsold the Camaro. These days if the Mustang continued to underperform they would eventually start losing sales. Plus we have already seen the Camaro match and beat Mustang sales lately. And now that the pricing will be equal on both cars, do you really think Ford could sell a significantly slower Mustang with less options at the same price as the Camaro and get away with it? Ford has nothing to match the Camaro on the same tier level.