[SSfriendly]

You just need to answer each question to see my point.

There hasn’t been a direct, all data point competitor to the GT350R since the Z28.

There will always be crossover to some degree…hell, there is GT350R crossover to the corvette.

You have to admit though, to say one car HAS to be compared to another simply because of its price and because it’s the only track offering is crazy. Using that logic…if the GT350 didn’t exist…would anyone really be comparing a GT with performance pack to a ZL1 1LE?

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

This is ridiculous.

All of these comparisons are arbitrary.

In all reality, the Z28 and GT350R were directly comparable. Both naturally aspirated, both track oriented. Similarly priced. That is as close as it got.

The current Camaro doesn’t currently have a car offering directly comparable to the GT350R, and Ford doesn’t have an offering comparable to the ZL1 OR the ZL1 1LE.

If I were looking for naturally aspirated, track oriented vehicle….what are the offerings?
If I were looking for an all-out track beast with complete disregard for engine size, displacement or induction type, what are the offerings?

People choose cars for a variety of reasons, it’s absurd to say that any car HAS to be compared to another based on single factors (price, only track model offered etc.).

With the GTPP2 coming out, this is as close as the comparison gets to the SS1LE. Both vehicles have the same power and body as the base V8 models, both are similarly priced and both are track oriented. If one car punches above its weight doesn’t change things here.

Please stop you are making sense here which is not allowed.

Do you want a 1-2 lap wonder (ZL1) which will get slower lap after lap, or do you want a dedicated track car which may be slower the first few laps but will maintain its lap times for the duration GT350R and Z28. If you were to ask Randy this question what would his response be? Maybe somebody can ask him

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

You just need to answer each question to see my point.

There hasn’t been a direct, all data point competitor to the GT350R since the Z28.

There will always be crossover to some degree…hell, there is GT350R crossover to the corvette.

You have to admit though, to say one car HAS to be compared to another simply because of its price and because it’s the only track offering is crazy. Using that logic…if the GT350 didn’t exist…would anyone really be comparing a GT with performance pack to a ZL1 1LE?

This forum (and others) are full of ridiculous competitor comparisons. Someone wanted to compare the Alfa Giulia Quadrifoglio to a ZL1 based on price and Ring lap. So while I understand and agree with your logic for the most part, I have learned there are no sacred rules in this arena. Just look at H2H comparisons.

And yes someone would. Hell they compared a LT V6 to an EB PP. The LT with it's A/S tires was slower until they swapped out the tires for summer ones. Then it was game over. But where's the LT 1LE vs EB PP comparison? Oh yea they compared it to a M2 over $20K more. Logic always get thrown to the side.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Please stop you are making sense here which is not allowed.

Do you want a 1-2 lap wonder (ZL1) which will get slower lap after lap, or do you want a dedicated track car which may be slower the first few laps but will maintain its lap times for the duration GT350R and Z28. If you were to ask Randy this question what would his response be? Maybe somebody can ask him

Haha, indeed.

Originally Posted by SuperSound

This forum (and others) are full of ridiculous competitor comparisons. Someone wanted to compare the Alfa Giulia Quadrifoglio to a ZL1 based on price and Ring lap. So while I understand and agree with your logic for the most part, I have learned there are no sacred rules in this arena. Just look at H2H comparisons.

And yes someone would. Hell they compared a LT V6 to an EB PP. The LT with it's A/S tires was slower until they swapped out the tires for summer ones. Then it was game over. But where's the LT 1LE vs EB PP comparison? Oh yea they compared it to a M2 over $20K more. Logic always get thrown to the side.

I don’t take issue with comparisons and discussions. What I take issue with is the notion that because cars are priced closely….or that they are the latest best offerings, that somehow we have to compare these. And of course because of these obvious mismatches, chest thumping occurs.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Speedofsound

It will be the laugh of a lifetime when I see a Camaro owner get beat by a mustang and put proceed to yell at the mustang, “YEA, WELL I WAS FASTER STOCK SO SUCK IT!”. Lmao

HAHAHAHAHA, honestly I would find that hilarious too.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

You just need to answer each question to see my point.

There hasn’t been a direct, all data point competitor to the GT350R since the Z28.

There will always be crossover to some degree…hell, there is GT350R crossover to the corvette.

You have to admit though, to say one car HAS to be compared to another simply because of its price and because it’s the only track offering is crazy. Using that logic…if the GT350 didn’t exist…would anyone really be comparing a GT with performance pack to a ZL1 1LE?

There we go again agreeing. UGH!

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Do you want a 1-2 lap wonder (ZL1) which will get slower lap after lap, or do you want a dedicated track car which may be slower the first few laps but will maintain its lap times for the duration GT350R and Z28. If you were to ask Randy this question what would his response be? Maybe somebody can ask him

Do you have any proof to back up this claim? I'm not aware of anyone reporting overheating issues in a ZL1 on the track. I can find this:

"Here’s the part Chevrolet doesn’t want me to say: In the Z06, the LT4 has cooling issues. The mighty Corvette’s heart heat soaks or overheats. Remember those 11 heat exchangers I was talking about? The Camaro ZL1 will not overheat. I tried, but even after six sets of rear tires in four days—not joking—the thunderous V-8 never so much as simmered. Two of those 11 heat exchangers are actually the intercoolers that straddle the supercharger. They are redesigned and repositioned for ZL1 duty."

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevr...e-squad-goals/

I also remember the last GT500 being the one with issues but it wasn't S/C related making it a one lap wonder. The ZL1 then didn't have issues either.

"While the Mustang was a half-second faster around the track than the ZL1 on its best lap, it couldn’t repeat the performance. By the end of the first lap, the brakes had already begun to heat up so badly, we could smell them from the pits as the car passed by on the front straight. By the end of the second lap, the Shelby had lost more than half of its advantage over the ZL1, turning a 1:39.03. By the third lap, the Mustang was behind the Camaro, turning a 1:39.30. The ZL1, meanwhile, never deviated by more than two-tenths of a second."

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevr...-shelby-gt500/

The only car in recent memory that has had any issues like the is the ZO6. You can talk about that all day, but FI does not equal one lap wonders as a whole.

I'd argue that driver fatigue will start causing slower laps before heatsoak becomes a real issue. I mean no one is running 50 or more laps in a session at any track I know. You'd have a better time talking about power delivery being a good reason to chose NA over FI for tracking.

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Haha, indeed.



I don’t take issue with comparisons and discussions. What I take issue with is the notion that because cars are priced closely….or that they are the latest best offerings, that somehow we have to compare these. And of course because of these obvious mismatches, chest thumping occurs.

Yea that's exactly why I mentioned those 2 examples. Price and what's available were used in each, not design/purpose.

[Mr. Meh]

My A10 ZL1 hasn't had issues overheating on tracks.. In fact, my fastest two laps from ACC in Joliet were mid session because I kept getting stuck behind people.. So, if anything, my ZL1 was slowing down lap after lap because of lesser drivers/cars in front of me not pointing me by.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

I can spec out a $45k Focus, does that make it a direct competitor?
I can spec out a Ford explorer to be $45k, let’s compare that to the SS1LE.
Hell, let’s compare the best chevy and GM has to offer….a Corvette and the Ford GT.

Let me ask you, if I was interested in a naturally aspirated pony car meant for the track in 2015…which vehicles would I be looking at?
If I was interested in a naturally aspirated pony car meant for the track in 2018…which vehicles would I be looking at?
If you were looking for the best track oriented pony car for $75k, what would you be looking at?

People make decisions based off of more than a single data point…and vehicle lineups shift every few years.

The fact of the matter is, there currently huge difference in the lineup between the mustang and camaro. Chevy nuts will continue to try to lineup cars that make the chevy brand look better as will the Ford nuts. The fact of the matter is though, the Z28 and GT350R WERE direct competitors. One no longer exists…and therefore the other has no direct competitor (where all data points line up).

I agree that the GT350R and the ZL1 aren't direct competitors yet MT did a H2H anyway. Then, after the ZL1 laid the GT350R to waste in every measurable performance characteristic, they picked the R as the winner because it was a more "raw" track car.

Then trolls say if only the R had more power.... Nothing in Ford's past suggests that would suddenly make it a ZL1-1LE competitor. This gen belongs to Camaro but the saga will continue.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I feel like you and I agree quite often even if coming from other sides, but none of your points above make any sense.

This dude is a freakin maniac with some of the shit he says.

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

This is ridiculous.

All of these comparisons are arbitrary.

In all reality, the Z28 and GT350R were directly comparable. Both naturally aspirated, both track oriented. Similarly priced. That is as close as it got.

The current Camaro doesn’t currently have a car offering directly comparable to the GT350R, and Ford doesn’t have an offering comparable to the ZL1 OR the ZL1 1LE.

If I were looking for naturally aspirated, track oriented vehicle….what are the offerings?
If I were looking for an all-out track beast with complete disregard for engine size, displacement or induction type, what are the offerings?

People choose cars for a variety of reasons, it’s absurd to say that any car HAS to be compared to another based on single factors (price, only track model offered etc.).

With the GTPP2 coming out, this is as close as the comparison gets to the SS1LE. Both vehicles have the same power and body as the base V8 models, both are similarly priced and both are track oriented. If one car punches above its weight doesn’t change things here.

So you saw Newmoon make this argument and now all of a sudden this is the argument you're sticking too? You're a funny little kid. Oh but wait, now all of a sudden it's about the performance of the Mustang? Funny when you guys were talking about sales and how special the engine is and that performance isn't the only thing that matters...yet once again you're clinging to a performance argument.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

I can spec out a $45k Focus, does that make it a direct competitor?
I can spec out a Ford explorer to be $45k, let’s compare that to the SS1LE.
Hell, let’s compare the best chevy and GM has to offer….a Corvette and the Ford GT.

Let me ask you, if I was interested in a naturally aspirated pony car meant for the track in 2015…which vehicles would I be looking at?
If I was interested in a naturally aspirated pony car meant for the track in 2018…which vehicles would I be looking at?
If you were looking for the best track oriented pony car for $75k, what would you be looking at?

People make decisions based off of more than a single data point…and vehicle lineups shift every few years.

The fact of the matter is, there currently huge difference in the lineup between the mustang and camaro. Chevy nuts will continue to try to lineup cars that make the chevy brand look better as will the Ford nuts. The fact of the matter is though, the Z28 and GT350R WERE direct competitors. One no longer exists…and therefore the other has no direct competitor (where all data points line up).

I get it. A car 3 years out of production is the closest competitor the 350 has. The truth is that the 350R costs more than the ZL1 and barely beats the SS 1LE.

[BlaqWhole]

Best NA offering from GM - SS 1LE
Best NA offering from Ford - GT350R

Lets compare them.

Quarter mile - R by 1-2 tenths.
Track - tied at WS, other track the R has gone faster
Price - R is about twice the money
Reliability - R has issues with overheating and going into limp mode

So if you wanna pit the SS 1LE against the R then go right ahead. None of us has any problem saying that the R is faster than the SS 1LE. Hell being damn near twice the cost, lighter, more HP, CF wheels, and an engine that revs to 8250, it damn well should be faster. We can also compare the standard SS to the GT350 (non-R), the V6 1LE to the GTPP and the GT non-PP if you want. What does Ford have for the ZL1? Nothing. What does Ford have for the ZL1 1LE? Nothing. What does Ford have for the Z51 Vette, GS Vette, and Z06 Vette? Nothing, nothing, and nothing. What do they have for the ZR1? Nothing...unless you wanna count the Ford GT which is in the $400K price range. And I think the ZR1 might even still have something to bring to the Ford GT.

So the R can beat everything below it's price range and nothing in it's price range. And it takes the step up higher and more expensive Mustang to match or beat a lower level Camaro. Got it.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I get it. A car 3 years out of production is the closest competitor the 350 has. The truth is that the 350R costs more than the ZL1 and barely beats the SS 1LE.

That is 100% a fact!

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I agree that the GT350R and the ZL1 aren't direct competitors yet MT did a H2H anyway. Then, after the ZL1 laid the GT350R to waste in every measurable performance characteristic, they picked the R as the winner because it was a more "raw" track car.

Then trolls say if only the R had more power.... Nothing in Ford's past suggests that would suddenly make it a ZL1-1LE competitor. This gen belongs to Camaro but the saga will continue.

They did the comparison because there wasn’t any other options available…which I’m good with. Hell, if you want to compare a camaro against a miata….awesome.

And for the record, most generations of performance belong to the camaro…this isn’t anything new. Chevy guys always claim they are the fastest from the factory, Ford guys claim they have a better aftermarket. In the end, does it really make you feel better if you lost to a mustang that was modified...as if the loss turns into a moral victory? I feel sorry for those that do...as those are the folks that will trade in their 1 year old car in a heartbeat for the new and faster vehicle.

With that said, I would hardly call a 0.4 advantage around willow “laying waste”. The GT350R is a better balanced car with better brakes and wheels. Although, with the ridiculous HP and torque advantage it has, It should lay waste in acceleration….it FI after all.

As it stands, Ford doesn’t make an all-out FI track car…or any mustang with forced induction. The ZL1 and ZL1-1LE equally have no match from the Ford camp.