[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Speedofsound

What percent of people leave their cars stock whether GT or SS in this forum of mustang forums? Ford offers plenty of power options covered by warranty.

True, but I don't think the Coyote is the problem at all. I think its a great engine, and has enough power in stock form for me also. More than my M3 by a bit anyway.

As I have said, I think the overall platform and package drags the motor down. Same as the GT350. The engine is BY FAR the best part of Ford's cars.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

It's a good time to own a Ford, Chevy or Dodge...all 3 are making some killer rides.

SO good! We get caught up in which is better etc, and don't often step back and compare all 3 to past cars and to overall competition. For the money, all 3 offer amazing options to make us cars guys happy.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I don't think GM will ever get complacent despite what Ford does because GM is always aiming at the supercars and elite hypercars etc. Even back in the 90s and early 2000s GM was coming at the Ferraris and Lambos etc. They went head to head against the Viper and even developed the 90s ZR1 to step their game up. And the thing is that the Camaro gets the trickle down from what they do with the Corvette. So as long as they're aiming the Vette at the top dogs then the Camaro will continue to be awesome and improve. Ford basically just tries to keep up with the Camaro. On a side note, I would love to see how this upcoming ZR1 stacks up against the GTR.

Well, lets not forget how Ford's original GT kicked the crap out of anything made at that time from the likes of Ferrari etc. That thing was an amazing machine, and MUCH props to Ford for that car.

While they are still doing amazing things from an engine perspective, they have fallen quite a bit from that prestige, and that can happen to GM too.

I agree, handing down tech from the Corvette is a HUGE part of why the Camaro stays so competitive. That's an advantage the Mustang doesn't share. That is also a valid point made by some Ford guys. The Mustang is more unique in that it doesn't share parts handed down from it's big bro(there isnt one), but I don't agree that somehow that makes it better like the point they try and make with that statement.

I gotta admit guys, this is some fun conversation!!!

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ford basically just tries to keep up with the Camaro.

Not really.

The Camaro was irrelevant when Ford was developing the 2012/2013 Boss 302. Ford was aiming and competing with the M3. Ford's benchmark in development of the S550 was Porsche, not the Camaro, which they directly said. Likewise when they were working on the GT350 the Z/28 was only one of the cars they were using as performance goals, the other being a Z51 C7 and a 911 variant. Hell the entire S550 project was started before the Camaro was even on showroom floors for more than a few months (2009).
The goal of the S550 was to maintain, roughly, the performance of the late S197 Mustang GT's while improving comfort, fit, finish and handling..which they accomplished. The benchmark for the 2015 GTPP was the Boss 302, which they matched in everything except 1/4 mile performance.

Meanwhile Chevy had multiple S550's that they were using to test and benchmark the 6th Gen Camaro with in late 2014 and early 2015.

The company that has consistently been playing catch up and trying to overcome stigma has been GM and the Camaro, not the Mustang. The death of the Camaro in 2002 is still really raw and fresh for a lot of people and seems to be an ever present, even if unfounded, fear for the Camaro community.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Because ¼ mile performance has never been the end all determining factor for most pony car buyers. If people intentionally purchase the slower car in droves, it’s a clear indicator that there is something more to the equation. Blind loyalty will occur with every manufacturer, but that’s not what were talking about here. The mustang obviously has characteristics that have allowed it to be more than competitive in the market compared to the camaro.

You are completely wrong. These cars were built with an emphasis on 1/4 mile performance. Hell in the 80s that is basically all they were good for. People bought them mainly to race or to go fast in a straight line. And see, this is where it is difficult trying to discuss things with people like yourself. Because you think you know soo much and you have no idea about the history of these cars. Your entire statement is completely wrong and you presented it in a know-it-all manner.

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

And you have a car with features that turnoff potential buyers (the fault you’re talking about).

Nonsense. The ONLY reason the Mustang sold more is because it was much cheaper. Ford pushed the dealerships to move the EB Stangs out as much as they could and they sold like hotcakes because they were soo cheap. The base GT also. The Camaro was more expensive because it offered more and so obviously it will sell less. There were no features that turned buyers off. If someone wanted a SS and could afford it and wanted the best performing car, there was nothing that would make them buy a GT instead. Even the Mustang guys were telling people to buy the SS if they wanted a better performing car. And not even the visibility issue that people love to harp on.

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Want more? Sure…need more? Most people don’t…and those that think they do will be caught up with trying to keep up in the “I have the fastest car” market.

If anything of what you said is true, then why are you here bragging about the 12 flat that LMR did? Why are you on a Camaro forum in a Camaro VS subforum on a thread about the performance of the Mustang vs the Camaro? You have spent 95% of your time solely here arguing back and forth about the performance of the Mustang, yet it isn't about who has the fastest car?

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

I have nothing but love for pushrod motors….love tinkering and working on them. With that said, people seek out different things. Higher revving engines with peaky powerbands appeal to quite a few people. Ford hit the nail on the head with the coyote….as they have no competition from GM or Chrysler for people seeking out a DOHC v8 “muscle” car.

Ford did not hit the nail on the head. All you Mustang guys have done for the past 7 years is complain about the lack of torque, the lack of displacement, the lack of low end grunt, etc. How is that hitting the nail on the head? If the DOHC V8 market was such a hit then Chevy and Dodge would both have been doing it too. For the record the 90s ZR1 WAS a DOHC engine and GM went back to the pushrod platform. If you look at everything involved with the DOHC engine including the cost of developing and building one as well as the fuel economy they get, cost of parts, labor costs, etc, you would know that it is not an efficient design. Now I'll give you the fact that some people do love a high revving engine. But don't sit here acting like the DOHC is the end all say all when right now the most powerful engines are pushrod and the fastest Muscle Cars have pushrods.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

You are completely wrong. These cars were built with an emphasis on 1/4 mile performance. Hell in the 80s that is basically all they were good for. People bought them mainly to race or to go fast in a straight line. And see, this is where it is difficult trying to discuss things with people like yourself. Because you think you know soo much and you have no idea about the history of these cars. Your entire statement is completely wrong and you presented it in a know-it-all manner.



Nonsense. The ONLY reason the Mustang sold more is because it was much cheaper. Ford pushed the dealerships to move the EB Stangs out as much as they could and they sold like hotcakes because they were soo cheap. The base GT also. The Camaro was more expensive because it offered more and so obviously it will sell less. There were no features that turned buyers off. If someone wanted a SS and could afford it and wanted the best performing car, there was nothing that would make them buy a GT instead. Even the Mustang guys were telling people to buy the SS if they wanted a better performing car. And not even the visibility issue that people love to harp on.



If anything of what you said is true, then why are you here bragging about the 12 flat that LMR did? Why are you on a Camaro forum in a Camaro VS subforum on a thread about the performance of the Mustang vs the Camaro? You have spent 95% of your time solely here arguing back and forth about the performance of the Mustang, yet it isn't about who has the fastest car?



Ford did not hit the nail on the head. All you Mustang guys have done for the past 7 years is complain about the lack of torque, the lack of displacement, the lack of low end grunt, etc. How is that hitting the nail on the head? If the DOHC V8 market was such a hit then Chevy and Dodge would both have been doing it too. For the record the 90s ZR1 WAS a DOHC engine and GM went back to the pushrod platform. If you look at everything involved with the DOHC engine including the cost of developing and building one as well as the fuel economy they get, cost of parts, labor costs, etc, you would know that it is not an efficient design. Now I'll give you the fact that some people do love a high revving engine. But don't sit here acting like the DOHC is the end all say all when right now the most powerful engines are pushrod and the fastest Muscle Cars have pushrods.

True, but we may see a Z28 with a DOHC if the rumors of the LT7 are true.

[SpeedIsLife]

According to (leaked?) documents, GM is preparing two DOHC V8's for the C8 Corvette, a 4.4L and a 5.5L, with the 6.2 pushrod motors phasing out by 2021 or 2022.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

You are completely wrong. These cars were built with an emphasis on 1/4 mile performance. Hell in the 80s that is basically all they were good for. People bought them mainly to race or to go fast in a straight line. And see, this is where it is difficult trying to discuss things with people like yourself. Because you think you know soo much and you have no idea about the history of these cars. Your entire statement is completely wrong and you presented it in a know-it-all manner.



Nonsense. The ONLY reason the Mustang sold more is because it was much cheaper. Ford pushed the dealerships to move the EB Stangs out as much as they could and they sold like hotcakes because they were soo cheap. The base GT also. The Camaro was more expensive because it offered more and so obviously it will sell less. There were no features that turned buyers off. If someone wanted a SS and could afford it and wanted the best performing car, there was nothing that would make them buy a GT instead. Even the Mustang guys were telling people to buy the SS if they wanted a better performing car. And not even the visibility issue that people love to harp on.



If anything of what you said is true, then why are you here bragging about the 12 flat that LMR did? Why are you on a Camaro forum in a Camaro VS subforum on a thread about the performance of the Mustang vs the Camaro? You have spent 95% of your time solely here arguing back and forth about the performance of the Mustang, yet it isn't about who has the fastest car?



Ford did not hit the nail on the head. All you Mustang guys have done for the past 7 years is complain about the lack of torque, the lack of displacement, the lack of low end grunt, etc. How is that hitting the nail on the head? If the DOHC V8 market was such a hit then Chevy and Dodge would both have been doing it too. For the record the 90s ZR1 WAS a DOHC engine and GM went back to the pushrod platform. If you look at everything involved with the DOHC engine including the cost of developing and building one as well as the fuel economy they get, cost of parts, labor costs, etc, you would know that it is not an efficient design. Now I'll give you the fact that some people do love a high revving engine. But don't sit here acting like the DOHC is the end all say all when right now the most powerful engines are pushrod and the fastest Muscle Cars have pushrods.

You may want to brush up on your reading comprehension and re-read my post. It's comical how far off based you are.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

Not really.

The Camaro was irrelevant when Ford was developing the 2012/2013 Boss 302. Ford was aiming and competing with the M3. Ford's benchmark in development of the S550 was Porsche, not the Camaro, which they directly said. Likewise when they were working on the GT350 the Z/28 was only one of the cars they were using as performance goals, the other being a Z51 C7 and a 911 variant. Hell the entire S550 project was started before the Camaro was even on showroom floors for more than a few months (2009).
The goal of the S550 was to maintain, roughly, the performance of the late S197 Mustang GT's while improving comfort, fit, finish and handling..which they accomplished. The benchmark for the 2015 GTPP was the Boss 302, which they matched in everything except 1/4 mile performance.

If that is so then why was Ford soo behind the Camaro? Why did the 2010 Camaro come out and destroy the 2010 GT? Why was the S550 GT slower than the S197 GT if they were developing the S550 way back in 09? They had 6 years. Ford can't even keep up with the Camaro despite all this development and them supposedly aiming the Stang at Porsches and M3s. What kind of nonsense is that? They did good with the BOSS I'll give them that. But that was for only what like 2 years? So they had all this development and all this time and were aiming at all these cars yet they could only produce a formidable Mustang against those cars for 2 years and the standard GT was good enough to battle the Camaro for only 4 years? And then the S550 got wiped out? Come on.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

If that is so then why was Ford soo behind the Camaro? Why did the 2010 Camaro come out and destroy the 2010 GT? Why was the S550 GT slower than the S197 GT if they were developing the S550 way back in 09? They had 6 years. Ford can't even keep up with the Camaro despite all this development and them supposedly aiming the Stang at Porsches and M3s. What kind of nonsense is that? They did good with the BOSS I'll give them that. But that was for only what like 2 years? So they had all this development and all this time and were aiming at all these cars yet they could only produce a formidable Mustang against those cars for 2 years and the standard GT was good enough to battle the Camaro for only 4 years? And then the S550 got wiped out? Come on.

Man, where do you come up with this stuff lol!

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

You may want to brush up on your reading comprehension and re-read my post. It's comical how far off based you are.

What's comical is that nothing you say makes any sense.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Man, where do you come up with this stuff lol!

Show me where I'm wrong then. You can't because you're talking out your ass again...and I'm waiting for you to change the subject or dodge it.

[Speedofsound]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Man, where do you come up with this stuff lol!

Car and driver magazines

[ChefBorOzzy]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

Not really.

The Camaro was irrelevant when Ford was developing the 2012/2013 Boss 302. Ford was aiming and competing with the M3. Ford's benchmark in development of the S550 was Porsche, not the Camaro, which they directly said. Likewise when they were working on the GT350 the Z/28 was only one of the cars they were using as performance goals, the other being a Z51 C7 and a 911 variant. Hell the entire S550 project was started before the Camaro was even on showroom floors for more than a few months (2009).
The goal of the S550 was to maintain, roughly, the performance of the late S197 Mustang GT's while improving comfort, fit, finish and handling..which they accomplished. The benchmark for the 2015 GTPP was the Boss 302, which they matched in everything except 1/4 mile performance.

Meanwhile Chevy had multiple S550's that they were using to test and benchmark the 6th Gen Camaro with in late 2014 and early 2015.

The company that has consistently been playing catch up and trying to overcome stigma has been GM and the Camaro, not the Mustang. The death of the Camaro in 2002 is still really raw and fresh for a lot of people and seems to be an ever present, even if unfounded, fear for the Camaro community.

Lol.. The "CHEVY HAD MUSTANGS TO BENCHMARK" thing is so funny. The car was out for less than a year before Camaro hit lots. Everything that's difficult about a car was finished on the Camaro way before Mustang hit lots. They could play with suspension which will obviously make a difference in performance, but Camaro came in weighing less while using better parts.

Ford has the benefit of knowing which engine will go into the Camaro a few years in advance..

Ford is the king of hype with their cars and seem to lack delivery on the performance front when you compare to competition. Focus RS, Ford GT, Mustang GT, GT350.. At least for the most part they look good and will work fine for most as people don't take their cars to the track.

As far as Boss 302 vs GT PP, do we have anything outside of Ford's claims?