[JB'sZL1]

I don't understand all this hullaballoo over stock. Some of us want a benchmark of times and speeds with no mods. Others, like Big Dave, want to push an unmodded car to its limit.

Why is this simple thing not understood (and appreciated) by some? Stock is stock. It is really that simple. I'm all for mods for gains...if that's what you want to do. Let's just not pose it as stock. Just tire changes (let alone wheel and tire changes) achieve better results. That's not stock.

[17CamaroZL1]

Honestly, I'm kind of down the middle on this tire debate. I can see both sides of the argument and can agree with both. I think the best way to solve it, is to not bump the car to the modded class from a tire change alone, but instead just add another column to the right of the bone stock (factory everything) times/speeds that has the header of "With Tire". Then you have a quick and easy reference to see what kind of difference a tire change makes. Of course one of the columns would be blank or NA if the car hasn't been ran in both configurations. I would even do the same thing to modded lists, because there are going to be a lot of people that will modify their car to make more power, but still run street tires. Then those people can look at the list and see what the difference is between the 2 tires with similar mods as their's. I would think this would satisfy everyone and end all of the bickering over tires.

[S.T.A.R.]

After thinking this through, I'm all for drag tires to properly compare two automobiles.

By the addition of DR's, you will eliminate an unwanted variable, in this case, subtraction by addition.
*This is one area that must be consistent, as much as it can possibly be.*

1 -You remove street tires that won't bite in many cases.
2 -You also remove the inexperience of the driver at the launch phase.

If people want to constantly compare cars (my apple to your orange) and they always will, you can't have one car fishtailing through the launch pad while the other is just killing it with great 60' times. That's not a true indication of the cars capability...it's an indictment of the rubber!
Imagine trying to get a 69' ZL1 off the pad consistently with those SHIT tires they had back in 1969, I'm sure we'd all be very impressed with its 15.0 second pass.

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by 17CamaroZL1

Honestly, I'm kind of down the middle on this tire debate. I can see both sides of the argument and can agree with both. I think the best way to solve it, is to not bump the car to the modded class from a tire change alone, but instead just add another column to the right of the bone stock (factory everything) times/speeds that has the header of "With Tire". Then you have a quick and easy reference to see what kind of difference a tire change makes. Of course one of the columns would be blank or NA if the car hasn't been ran in both configurations. I would even do the same thing to modded lists, because there are going to be a lot of people that will modify their car to make more power, but still run street tires. Then those people can look at the list and see what the difference is between the 2 tires with similar mods as their's. I would think this would satisfy everyone and end all of the bickering over tires.

This is an excellent suggestion for those that keep up with a list to see how they rank and should be an easy compromise for everyone.

I would also add a "track prepped yes/no" column as that is just as much of a variable. Our local track doesn't prep on TNT days while others around the country do. That's just as much of a variable.

Originally Posted by S.T.A.R.

After thinking this through, I'm all for drag tires to properly compare two automobiles.

By the addition of DR's, you will eliminate an unwanted variable, in this case, subtraction by addition.
*This is one area that must be consistent, as much as it can possibly be.*

1 -You remove street tires that won't bite in many cases.
2 -You also remove the inexperience of the driver at the launch phase.

If people want to constantly compare cars (my apple to your orange) and they always will, you can't have one car fishtailing through the launch pad while the other is just killing it with great 60' times. That's not a true indication of the cars capability...it's an indictment of the rubber!
Imagine trying to get a 69' ZL1 off the pad consistently with those SHIT tires they had back in 1969, I'm sure we'd all be very impressed with its 15.0 second pass.

Give this man a cigar. He gets it. The ZL1 came from the factory with what appear to be pretty good tires and/or excellent TM for launching. When someone compares factory tires to DR we'll know which or both. I've said 100 times tire selection normally comes down to lawyers and bean counters. My Hellcat came with all season Perelli tires which are a complete joke, and likely why so many of these cars have ended up wrapped around a pole on the way home from the dealer. Mine would spin tires just gently leaving a stop light before I took the all seasons off the rear of the car.

With Dodge finally getting a good tire through the lawyers and bean counters for the Demon, that tires will now likely be an option on the order form for the Hellcat so in the end the stock tire debate on this forum between the two cars will become moot if not already. Technically one would argue the Demon is a Challenger and therefore the tire would be considered stock on a Hellcat.

For folks like me that just want max performance and don't worry with forum lists, it's irrelevant. The Hellcat goes from a 12 second car at 125MPH on all seasons, to a low 11 second car at 126MPH on the summer tire option, and a 10 second car at 128-129MPH on a drag radial run a slick and well, you can do the math.

This list that penalizes folks who run stock tires is flawed right off the bat as it does not take in to account track prep as I mention above as just as much of a variable. So some get the benefit of tracks like ATCO and MIR while others end up at Billy Bob and Raymond''s 1/4 Mile extravaganza where they don't know what prep even is. Good tires will take track prep out of the equation and you can really see what the car should run on any given day's DA.

[S.T.A.R.]

The reason the Hellcat can reach the 10's is simply because it can, the potential is there without the need of extra air, better flowing exhaust, bolt on toys or internal enhancements.
Look at the width of the rear skins on a Hellcat, now the 18' 1LE? I'll go with the Goodyears!

[Speedy1975]

Yeah a 325/30R19 is a steamroller for sure.

[JB'sZL1]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

Give this man a cigar. He gets it.

For folks like me that just want max performance and don't worry with forum lists, it's irrelevant. The Hellcat goes from a 12 second car at 125MPH on all seasons, to a low 11 second car at 126MPH on the summer tire option, and a 10 second car at 128-129MPH on a drag radial run a slick and well, you can do the math.

big dave gets similar results with his 5th Gen Z.

All the more reason to call stock stock, and anything else (changed) a mod. It makes for simple comparisons.

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

This is an excellent suggestion for those that keep up with a list to see how they rank and should be an easy compromise for everyone.

I would also add a "track prepped yes/no" column as that is just as much of a variable. Our local track doesn't prep on TNT days while others around the country do. That's just as much of a variable.

I like the track prep column too, but the problem with it is.....there are different levels of prep. My local track preps, but I've yet to do any better than a 1.84 60', where I got a 1.73, 1.78, and 1.77 at Bowling Green during Street Car Takeover. My 1.88 at Bowling Green was me trying the manuals recommended 26 psi in the rear tires, but that didn't work. I've hit London during grudge wars, which has 0 track prep, and I couldn't get below a 2.0 60'. Every pass I made, got worse.

Last time at London, I tried launching the same way I did in BG and ended up with a mid to high 1.8, so I tried softening my launch a little, but just slowed down. My last pass, I pretty much managed to launch without spinning, but it was just way too soft, as I had a 1.99 60'.

I was talking to a friend of mine during my last track outing and telling him how good my car hooked at SCT in BG, and how I felt they must've done something different than London, because I spin just like I'm on some country back road at London, and he was telling me that London preps for slicks and radials need a different prep, but he can't get them to do a radial prep. He runs drag radials and was having traction issues as much as I was, it sounded. I'd never heard of that before. Then a few days ago, I ran across this video talking about that exact thing.

https://youtu.be/6WH_2HTBkbo

I found this very interesting and it made me think that maybe Beech Bend did the radial prep for SCT since most everyone was running drag radials, since it was a street car event after all.

[grampa_ss]

Originally Posted by Infern0

Not sure what all the sarcasm and complaining about. Stock is very straightforward. "As it comes off of the manufacturing line", at least in my book. If you change something, you add a variable. The stock definition is the control. Why all the consternation with that?

Like I said...Your mentioned version of "Stock" only applies to this forum. And like i said earlier, nowhere on this planet is an all-season tire considered a mod....except in this forum.

You seriously can't tell me that if you're at the track if someone asks if you if your car is stock, you're going to say No...it's modded...I have all-season tires.
You will get a lot of weird looks and people will think you're an idiot.

[hotlap]

Submit your times to Merc in the required format and see where you land

1. You need to upload your timeslips on Camaro6.com for them to be added to the list no third party storage sites or programs.

2. Post the following information with your timeslip.

- Year, Automatic or Manual
- Tires used on pass (Goodyear Runflats, Pirelli Scorpions Etc.)
- Performance Mods (This means anything done VTC, CAI, Downpipe, Tune, Etc.)
- Run Information
R/T
60'
330'
660'
660' MPH
1000'
1320'
1320 MPH
Track Name:
City & State:

This isn't like intern dating.

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by grampa_ss

You seriously can't tell me that if you're at the track if someone asks if you if your car is stock, you're going to say No...it's modded...I have all-season tires.
You will get a lot of weird looks and people will think you're an idiot.

Well......it depends. If you go racing in the rain or snow......you're going to look like the smart one.

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by JB'sZL1

big dave gets similar results with his 5th Gen Z.

All the more reason to call stock stock, and anything else (changed) a mod. It makes for simple comparisons.

Dave runs 12s at 125 on an all season and 11.0 - 11.2 on summer tires at 126 in a 5th Gen ZL1?? Gotta a link to this info? That's faster than I've ever heard of one going even on a DR, but I haven't followed this forums lists or anything, just what I've seen at my local track running with us. I didn't think the 5th gen ZL1 could even trap that high as that's on par with the Gen6 ZL1.

EDITED: I thought I remembered him putting his times in his signature and went back and looked. While his runs are certainly impressive it is not 12s on all seasons and low 11s on summer tires, nor is the MPH in the mid 120s. This is how mis-information gets spread and is a real pet peeve of mine.

5/10ths and 5 MPH isn't "similar" by any means when talking drag strip times.

If he ran faster and just didn't update the signature let me know.

From Dave's sig:
'13 ZL1 BRM A6. 11.591 @ 119.2 factory stock with a 1.68 60'! Best stock mph 121.8. 11.29 @ 123 RotoFab, drag radials and skinnies. 4360# raceweight.

Originally Posted by 17CamaroZL1

I like the track prep column too, but the problem with it is.....there are different levels of prep. My local track preps, but I've yet to do any better than a 1.84 60', where I got a 1.73, 1.78, and 1.77 at Bowling Green during Street Car Takeover. My 1.88 at Bowling Green was me trying the manuals recommended 26 psi in the rear tires, but that didn't work. I've hit London during grudge wars, which has 0 track prep, and I couldn't get below a 2.0 60'. Every pass I made, got worse.

Last time at London, I tried launching the same way I did in BG and ended up with a mid to high 1.8, so I tried softening my launch a little, but just slowed down. My last pass, I pretty much managed to launch without spinning, but it was just way too soft, as I had a 1.99 60'.

I was talking to a friend of mine during my last track outing and telling him how good my car hooked at SCT in BG, and how I felt they must've done something different than London, because I spin just like I'm on some country back road at London, and he was telling me that London preps for slicks and radials need a different prep, but he can't get them to do a radial prep. He runs drag radials and was having traction issues as much as I was, it sounded. I'd never heard of that before. Then a few days ago, I ran across this video talking about that exact thing.

https://youtu.be/6WH_2HTBkbo

I found this very interesting and it made me think that maybe Beech Bend did the radial prep for SCT since most everyone was running drag radials, since it was a street car event after all.

There you go on the differences in prep at different tracks and makes the point exactly. .2 - .3 difference in 60' (1.7x - 2.0) is a BIG deal as you know.

I had NO idea there were different prep methods for slick vs DR. That video was real interesting, and telling as well. They had to have an expert with them to prep the track for the Demon, those little things they don't tell you (like a lot of people) that set records like these. So looks like when they drag the rubber it's for slicks, and when they just spray it's for DRs. Interesting.

Originally Posted by 17CamaroZL1

Well......it depends. If you go racing in the rain or snow......you're going to look like the smart one.

I just spit my drink!

[grampa_ss]

Originally Posted by 17CamaroZL1

Well......it depends. If you go racing in the rain or snow......you're going to look like the smart one.

Touche

[96MrBass]

Originally Posted by Infern0

Not sure what all the sarcasm and complaining about. Stock is very straightforward. "As it comes off of the manufacturing line", at least in my book. If you change something, you add a variable. The stock definition is the control. Why all the consternation with that?

Exactly that's why they call them Drag radials.