[MySS8U]

WOW!

I think he's full of it!!


http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...-thing-period/

[Oil Man]

I hadn't read it, but thanks for the link.

I think it's important to consider the source. Jack Baruth also writes for Road and Track, and he is usually the reason I find myself questioning why they still get my subscription money.

They're snobs. What you are supposed to take away from this article is that if something as banal as a <pearl clutching here> CAMARO can go around the 'Ring faster than some of the vaunted German and Italian masterpieces, then:

The Camaro in question was a ringer
The track is an overrated barometer of performance
GM buys off the "other" magazines and only he can tell you the truth
You're a uninformed hayseed if you think the Nurburgring matters.
..and so on.

It's tiring.

Most of the columnists for R&T are preoccupied with writing about how wonderful and connected THEY are, and somewhere in there can be some really great photographs of awesome cars sitting still, or doing awesome things on a track somewhere (along with snobby specs on the photograph, including at which speed and f/stop the photo was snapped, in case a rube like you or I actually HAD access to such a track and car, and was inclined to try to match their photographic prowess)

Short version: Jack Baruth is a narcissistic asshole that looks like a Wookie, and Road and Track writers favorite sexual position is holding a story about the Mille Miglia in the OTHER hand.

[wwiiavfan]

We'll, I live about a mile from Road America, so if anyone wants to loan me a ZL1 1LE, I'd be happy to take it around a "real" track and prove them wrong. 😄

[MySS8U]

Originally Posted by Oil Man

I hadn't read it, but thanks for the link.

I think it's important to consider the source. Jack Baruth also writes for Road and Track, and he is usually the reason I find myself questioning why they still get my subscription money.

They're snobs. What you are supposed to take away from this article is that if something as banal as a <pearl clutching here> CAMARO can go around the 'Ring faster than some of the vaunted German and Italian masterpieces, then:

The Camaro in question was a ringer
The track is an overrated barometer of performance
GM buys off the "other" magazines and only he can tell you the truth
You're a uninformed hayseed if you think the Nurburgring matters.
..and so on.

It's tiring.

Most of the columnists for R&T are preoccupied with writing about how wonderful and connected THEY are, and somewhere in there can be some really great photographs of awesome cars sitting still, or doing awesome things on a track somewhere (along with snobby specs on the photograph, including at which speed and f/stop the photo was snapped, in case a rube like you or I actually HAD access to such a track and car, and was inclined to try to match their photographic prowess)

Short version: Jack Baruth is a narcissistic asshole that looks like a Wookie, and Road and Track writers favorite sexual position is holding a story about the Mille Miglia in the OTHER hand.

[JFM-jr]

Originally Posted by Oil Man

I hadn't read it, but thanks for the link.

I think it's important to consider the source. Jack Baruth also writes for Road and Track, and he is usually the reason I find myself questioning why they still get my subscription money.

They're snobs. What you are supposed to take away from this article is that if something as banal as a <pearl clutching here> CAMARO can go around the 'Ring faster than some of the vaunted German and Italian masterpieces, then:

The Camaro in question was a ringer
The track is an overrated barometer of performance
GM buys off the "other" magazines and only he can tell you the truth
You're a uninformed hayseed if you think the Nurburgring matters.
..and so on.

It's tiring.

Most of the columnists for R&T are preoccupied with writing about how wonderful and connected THEY are, and somewhere in there can be some really great photographs of awesome cars sitting still, or doing awesome things on a track somewhere (along with snobby specs on the photograph, including at which speed and f/stop the photo was snapped, in case a rube like you or I actually HAD access to such a track and car, and was inclined to try to match their photographic prowess)

Short version: Jack Baruth is a narcissistic asshole that looks like a Wookie, and Road and Track writers favorite sexual position is holding a story about the Mille Miglia in the OTHER hand.

well said

[trboxman]

Silly class warfare stuff. He's upset that GM has gone and removed the Nurburgring from the snobbery list by kicking it in the teeth with their common man's sports cars.

[SuperSound]

Honestly there is some (keyword) truth to what they are saying but they missed the biggest reason "Ring times" are useless...there's no governing body to sanction them. Cars run in whatever conditions are which play a huge factor on such a long course, with varying driver skill, varying risk taking, and often non-production equipment or prototype cars . Comparing Ring times is almost a pointless exercise. Using Ring for tuning and the times as a ballpark figure is fine.

[trophy hunter]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Honestly there is some (keyword) truth to what they are saying but they missed the biggest reason "Ring times" are useless...there's no governing body to sanction them. Cars run in whatever conditions are which play a huge factor on such a long course, with varying driver skill, varying risk taking, and often non-production equipment or prototype cars . Comparing Ring times is almost a pointless exercise. Using Ring for tuning and the times as a ballpark figure is fine.

Well, while I understand what you are saying, do keep in mind that McLaren, Lamborghini, Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, Mercedes, Audi, BMW and Lexus (to name most of the bigger manufacturers) are all using the Nurburgring to post times......those are some BIG names, and I seriously doubt that they would be putting a "green horn" behind the wheel of any of those cars to make those runs.
Now, can they be "fudged" ? Sure....but why would Chevy, specifically, want to do this? If they were to get caught "fudging", it would do way more damage to the brand than the recognition of the good.
And, again, Dodge is doing the same thing and even going a step further with the Demon......
1) You have to purchase the "package" and its shipped to you.
2) It consists of a drag package wheel set up (would you drive it like that daily or in the rain?)
3) An upgraded ECU program to run 100+ octane (really -who carries that at their local gas station)
4) ......and there's the back seat delete (rear seats optional)
All of this so that they can make a claim and start a "buz" about the brand, and it worked !
GM did build the COPO and, the 580 hp version, is estimated to be in the 8.5 rang, but I believe that GM is more focused on handling....being more important (and fun!)

[Cldgin2]

That guys a wind bag that probably drives a Prius and washes his grocery bags

[MySS8U]

Originally Posted by Cldgin2

That guys a wind bag that probably drives a Prius and washes his grocery bags

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by trophy hunter

Well, while I understand what you are saying, do keep in mind that McLaren, Lamborghini, Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, Mercedes, Audi, BMW and Lexus (to name most of the bigger manufacturers) are all using the Nurburgring to post times......those are some BIG names, and I seriously doubt that they would be putting a "green horn" behind the wheel of any of those cars to make those runs.
Now, can they be "fudged" ? Sure....but why would Chevy, specifically, want to do this? If they were to get caught "fudging", it would do way more damage to the brand than the recognition of the good.
And, again, Dodge is doing the same thing and even going a step further with the Demon......
1) You have to purchase the "package" and its shipped to you.
2) It consists of a drag package wheel set up (would you drive it like that daily or in the rain?)
3) An upgraded ECU program to run 100+ octane (really -who carries that at their local gas station)
4) ......and there's the back seat delete (rear seats optional)
All of this so that they can make a claim and start a "buz" about the brand, and it worked !
GM did build the COPO and, the 580 hp version, is estimated to be in the 8.5 rang, but I believe that GM is more focused on handling....being more important (and fun!)

You are not following me. One, the weather conditions for these runs is all over the place. Even a slight temp difference or a little bit of rain (which happens frequently) can make a huge difference on this track. So right there any comparisons between the time car A and B does is void.

Example, the 1LE ran in a separate session a time almost equal to the GT350R. But then when you look at the times of the 2 for MT's BDC last time, there is a much larger difference. Why? same driver, same day, same conditions. Comparing times made on different days at a track is a joke. Sure it can tell you what that car is capable of...that day. That's all.

Driver skill, you really think all manufacturer drivers have the same skill level? Especially at the Ring which they usually only get once or twice during development to run. But besides that do you think every manufacturer tells their driver to go balls to the wall for a time or do they tell them make sure you don't wreck it? Personally the latter is what I think GM does

Example, the ZL1 (non-1LE) ran a 7:29. Great but how the hell did a Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio run a 7:32? Go compare their track times when Randy Pobst drove each (albeit different days) then ask yourself in what world would these cars be that close on such a long track. The answer is the Alfa driver was without a doubt driving that car much harder or the car was not stock (and probably perfect conditions at the track). Again, no tech inspections nothing but the word of Alfa that was stock. So there's no danger in anyone blowing the whistle on something.

A recent example of a non stock configuration posting a lap time was the Civic Type R recently. It was acknowledged the car was using R compound tires and a rollcage. Again no one really pays attention to this and just blindly accepts the time.

So to answer your question, undoubtedly these manufacturers are fudging numbers. Do I believe GM is? Nope....I believe GM just posts the fastest time they captured when they do testing. They aren't driving the car to the limit and beyond like some do, b/c they aren't out to prove anything that isn't obvious just looking at the stats and comparisons done by the media.

[reeper]

Originally Posted by MySS8U

WOW!

I think he's full of it!!


http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...-thing-period/

My take away from that article was another butt-hurt euro-loving auto writer not likely American manufactures playing the game and playing it well.

But hey......thats me :-)

[trophy hunter]

I hear what you are saying SuperSound but the fact also remains that magazines are and WILL continue to post articles about cars at Nurburgring and their times (its simply news that gets reader's attention). And while we HOPE that the manufacturer will be forth coming, it is up to the public to keep them honest.
And while I complete agree that weather conditions, drivers, etc have a HUGE affect on times.... all those things are in the manufacturer's hands (they can't control the weather but they can reschedule - at possible substantial cost $$)
In the end, this will continue to be a part of sports car heritage. Beyond that, do I think that GM took their show room floor version to the Ring that any of us could purchase - I do ........and that's all I care about. I am super impressed with what they were able to accomplish and glad that they took the ZL1 a step further (with the 1LE). Great job to GM for finding a way to generate some "buzz" back on the Camaro

[SSport16]

These writers and magazines can't stomach the fact that GM performance vehicles spank the crap out of foreign cars that are 3 , 4 and 5 times the price, not just at the Nuringburg track, but in real world tests as well. They can't accept the facts, just like liberals still can't except the fact that they lost last November! Facts are facts.