[FringBirdAloha]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

A tune does not change the flow characteristics of a tube. Nor does it magically make the engine suck in more air. The only reason you need a tune with these intakes is because the section where the MAF sensor is located has a larger diameter than the stock setup. Because of that, the ECU is not able to properly meter the air. So you need a tune to allow the air to be metered correctly. That is it. Everything else is the tune adding more timing or safely leaning out the AFR so it remains within acceptable range but gives a bit more power or even just adding more throttle opening. And that is where the vast majority of the hp or the feel of hp comes from. The intake gains are masked behind it. So with a tuned cai you might get 20 total hp...5 might be due to the extra flow from the tube and 15 might be from the actual tuning. With a non-tuned cai you might get 8 hp. So these guys with tuned a tuned setup will talk about how their system makes X amount yet nobody knows how much of it is attributable to the intake. In fact, it could be a completely trashy design that is robbing hp. But because the tune is adding hp, anything from the cai will be masked. THAT is why I hesitate to go with a tune required setup. Because their fail-safe is that the tune will add hp so they're safe and can report gains no matter what.

PMAS tried this. And a H2H of their system vs a JLT setup showed that there were no extra gains despite the extra 10mm diameter the PMAS had over the JLT. And the JLT, although being a tune required setup as well (due to a larger MAF section diameter over stock), never made more hp than the standard non-tune required intakes when a custom tune was introduced to them. Meaning that the tube itself is not better and has not been proven to be superior. The difference is coming from the tune. Plus they increase throttle speed in the tune which makes the car "feel" faster. These are all tricks. A properly developed non-tuned system WILL give you gains and WILL keep up with any of the tune required systems. People who say that "any intake without a tune is not doing anything" are just repeating what they read someone else say. I would love to see a H2H of both these intakes with and without a tune to show what is what.

+1

[unavailablezl1]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

A tune does not change the flow characteristics of a tube. Nor does it magically make the engine suck in more air. The only reason you need a tune with these intakes is because the section where the MAF sensor is located has a larger diameter than the stock setup. Because of that, the ECU is not able to properly meter the air. So you need a tune to allow the air to be metered correctly. That is it. Everything else is the tune adding more timing or safely leaning out the AFR so it remains within acceptable range but gives a bit more power or even just adding more throttle opening. And that is where the vast majority of the hp or the feel of hp comes from. The intake gains are masked behind it. So with a tuned cai you might get 20 total hp...5 might be due to the extra flow from the tube and 15 might be from the actual tuning. With a non-tuned cai you might get 8 hp. So these guys with tuned a tuned setup will talk about how their system makes X amount yet nobody knows how much of it is attributable to the intake. In fact, it could be a completely trashy design that is robbing hp. But because the tune is adding hp, anything from the cai will be masked. THAT is why I hesitate to go with a tune required setup. Because their fail-safe is that the tune will add hp so they're safe and can report gains no matter what.

PMAS tried this. And a H2H of their system vs a JLT setup showed that there were no extra gains despite the extra 10mm diameter the PMAS had over the JLT. And the JLT, although being a tune required setup as well (due to a larger MAF section diameter over stock), never made more hp than the standard non-tune required intakes when a custom tune was introduced to them. Meaning that the tube itself is not better and has not been proven to be superior. The difference is coming from the tune. Plus they increase throttle speed in the tune which makes the car "feel" faster. These are all tricks. A properly developed non-tuned system WILL give you gains and WILL keep up with any of the tune required systems. People who say that "any intake without a tune is not doing anything" are just repeating what they read someone else say. I would love to see a H2H of both these intakes with and without a tune to show what is what.

+1 what Blaqwhole said.

When you modify fuel or air mixture (either one), there is a window either way that the engine can tolerate without a "tune". Too much air, then the fuel mix will be too lean, to rich of fuel then the engine is choking and starving for air.

So if (it does) RotoFab adds more air, it does so in a manner that keeps it in the window of rich/lean without a tune. But then it would starve the engine when a lot of fuel is added into the mix.

[NicD]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

A tune does not change the flow characteristics of a tube. Nor does it magically make the engine suck in more air. The only reason you need a tune with these intakes is because the section where the MAF sensor is located has a larger diameter than the stock setup. Because of that, the ECU is not able to properly meter the air. So you need a tune to allow the air to be metered correctly. That is it. Everything else is the tune adding more timing or safely leaning out the AFR so it remains within acceptable range but gives a bit more power or even just adding more throttle opening. And that is where the vast majority of the hp or the feel of hp comes from. The intake gains are masked behind it. So with a tuned cai you might get 20 total hp...5 might be due to the extra flow from the tube and 15 might be from the actual tuning. With a non-tuned cai you might get 8 hp. So these guys with tuned a tuned setup will talk about how their system makes X amount yet nobody knows how much of it is attributable to the intake. In fact, it could be a completely trashy design that is robbing hp. But because the tune is adding hp, anything from the cai will be masked.

I agree with pretty much everything you said except for this snip.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

A properly developed non-tuned system WILL give you gains and WILL keep up with any of the tune required systems.

That's assuming that the factory diameter no tune required CAI isn't a restriction and that the combo wouldn't benefit from a larger higher flowing CAI. There will always be a point that a certain diameter tube is a restriction especially on the front of a PD blower, it's just if you will actually get to that point.

[Ron_Robinson1]

Originally Posted by djfury05

Sure it does. He wants the highest performing CAI available which isn't the Roto Fab for all the mods he'll be doing. Right now with the current offerings it looks like Vengeance's CAI would fit best. But with no results from it yet perhaps he's being cautious and letting data come in before buying.

This is exactly why. Maybe I could be wrong. But places like RPM make 5" intakes for the LSA. What will stop them from producing another one. New Era, and Vengenace also.

I liked the RotoFab, I ran it on my modded to piss 2013 ZL1. This car I will be going a different route.

[Ron_Robinson1]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Right. So RF isn't the best...but there are no results from the Vengeance...yet we have seen results from RF...but RF still isn't the best...but he'll probably go with Vengeance...despite no results...SMH.



He probably believes that because Vengeance says so, lol!!

Hope your not referring to me, because I'm selling my RotoFab. I'm not brand or shop loyal. I do what works. I have seen RPM swap out a intake to their intake on and make gains. I will go with at that time what produces the most HP. I like RotoFab like I said before. But for all out Hp build I don't think it will be the one.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by NicD

That's assuming that the factory diameter no tune required CAI isn't a restriction and that the combo wouldn't benefit from a larger higher flowing CAI. There will always be a point that a certain diameter tube is a restriction especially on the front of a PD blower, it's just if you will actually get to that point.

I agree...but conversely, that also would assume that the diameter is not sufficient enough as it is.

Originally Posted by Ron_Robinson1

Hope your not referring to me, because I'm selling my RotoFab. I'm not brand or shop loyal. I do what works. I have seen RPM swap out a intake to their intake on and make gains. I will go with at that time what produces the most HP. I like RotoFab like I said before. But for all out Hp build I don't think it will be the one.

LOL, look at what I said to the person I replied to...then look at who they replied to...

[Roto-fab 1]

Our 6th gen Camaro SS system has gained 40+ hp on multiple high output builds. Being very similar in design to our ZL1 system, we expect to see similar results. It is important to remember that even if a tune is required, a system is not necessarily flowing more air, or capable of flowing more air than a "no tune" system. I would encourage you all to disregard any manufacturer claims and put more weight into the 3rd party testing. That is where our benefits really shine. Sure XYZ, Incorporared can claim 65 hp and use a 7" diameter MAF housing, but until their system is tested head-to head against ours, I would stick with the tried and true.

[djfury05]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I agree...but conversely, that also would assume that the diameter is not sufficient enough as it is.



LOL, look at what I said to the person I replied to...then look at who they replied to...

Funny, after your smart ass comment I was exactly right from the get go. The only thing you've proven is that you hold the title of resident toolbag. Congrats!

[Evolvedx27]

Originally Posted by djfury05

Funny, after your smart ass comment I was exactly right from the get go. The only thing you've proven is that you hold the title of resident toolbag. Congrats!

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by djfury05

He wants the highest performing CAI available which isn't the Roto Fab

Originally Posted by djfury05

Right now with the current offerings it looks like Vengeance's CAI would fit best.

Originally Posted by djfury05

But with no results from it yet...

This statement just stood out to me because RF has done testing with their intake yet so far there is no testing with Vengeance. But anyway, it comes down to what a person prefers. I think either of these intakes will work well either as a stand-alone mod or with other bolt-ons or with extensive mods.

[NicD]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I agree...but conversely, that also would assume that the diameter is not sufficient enough as it is.

Yes, that's what I said. Look at the 5 inch intakes that are available on the LSA cars that are pullied to the moon with huge throttle bodies, cams, etc. The 5 inch intakes make a difference at that power level but obviously wouldn't with just simple bolt ons and that's the point I was making.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by NicD

Yes, that's what I said. Look at the 5 inch intakes that are available on the LSA cars that are pullied to the moon with huge throttle bodies, cams, etc. The 5 inch intakes make a difference at that power level but obviously wouldn't with just simple bolt ons and that's the point I was making.

Probably just a misunderstanding then. I agree that with some extensive mods the larger diameter might be a benefit. I would just like to see testing with a stock and heavily modded setup. And I would like to see a comparison between the two. When I am ready for a tune I would probably try out the Vengeance. But that will be also with LTs and a pulley...doing it all at once to avoid paying extra. If it gets dyno tuned then I'll see if I can do runs with the RF and then the Vengeance. So that way I can see if there is a difference between these two in the presence of moderate modifications. We'll see. And I'm sure someone is out there doing testing now anyway. The results will definitely be interesting!!

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Ron_Robinson1

Hope your not referring to me, because I'm selling my RotoFab. I'm not brand or shop loyal. I do what works. I have seen RPM swap out a intake to their intake on and make gains. I will go with at that time what produces the most HP. I like RotoFab like I said before. But for all out Hp build I don't think it will be the one.

The RPM 5 inch ? Is that the new hai version ?

You know what they say if you can't prove it , dazzle em with your bullshit!

[Ron_Robinson1]

Originally Posted by JimW

The RPM 5 inch ? Is that the new hai version ?

You know what they say if you can't prove it , dazzle em with your bullshit!

Ummmm okay...new HAI?? That's new to me. But I'm going out on a limb here and think you meant CAI. FYI, I never said anyone had one out yet. But it was a matter of time I would assume, just like they produced on the LSA. But let me keep trying dazzle people with bull shit...yawn...