[hotlap]

Originally Posted by NB2017ZL1

Who said anything about only 6M? It also comes in an A8 too... Optional ... Also the Viper is dead. Gone after 2017...

So with the optional A8 ($2,995 in 2017) it will cost $75,585.

[SuperSound]

So FCA says it laps 2 seconds quicker than the previous Hellcat around their 1.7mi track. So what does that look like:

Streets of Willow (1.6mi)
'15 Charger Hellcat - 1:26.87

And for comparison
'15 Challenger Scat Pack - 1:25.77
'17 Camaro LT 1LE - 1:25.19
'15 Mustang GT PP - 1:24.29
'16 Camaro SS - 1:23.15

So even assuming a full 2 second improvement at Streets of Willow, this thing will not even beat a GT PP and would have a hard time even with a LT 1LE! Why exactly did they bother again? It's still wearing Pzeros. Might as well left the fronts at 275 and just went bigger on the rear since this thing is still only competitive in a straight line. Better yet, just offer a DR package from the Demon and call it a day. The only thing they have done is added mixed feelings fender flares and made it faster around the track that it's sibling with 200+ less HP. All for $7K, terrible deal. $7K in mods on a '15-17 Hellcat would be a much better investment.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

So FCA says it laps 2 seconds quicker than the previous Hellcat around their 1.7mi track. So what does that look like:

Streets of Willow (1.6mi)
'15 Charger Hellcat - 1:26.87

And for comparison
'15 Challenger Scat Pack - 1:25.77
'17 Camaro LT 1LE - 1:25.19
'15 Mustang GT PP - 1:24.29
'16 Camaro SS - 1:23.15

So even assuming a full 2 second improvement at Streets of Willow, this thing will not even beat a GT PP and would have a hard time even with a LT 1LE! Why exactly did they bother again? It's still wearing Pzeros. Might as well left the fronts at 275 and just went bigger on the rear since this thing is still only competitive in a straight line. Better yet, just offer a DR package from the Demon and call it a day. The only thing they have done is added mixed feelings fender flares and made it faster around the track that it's sibling with 200+ less HP. All for $7K, terrible deal. $7K in mods on a '15-17 Hellcat would be a much better investment.

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Dodge knows that if you are buying a Hellcat in any trim you more than likely could care less about track times. How many actual owners would ever take this car to a track session? Actually how many ZL1 owners will ever actually take their car to a track session? The ZL1 has been out for months now has anyone ran it at a track yet? We do know there has been plenty of strip passes though.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Dodge knows that if you are buying a Hellcat in any trim you more than likely could care less about track times. How many actual owners would ever take this car to a track session? Actually how many ZL1 owners will ever actually take their car to a track session? The ZL1 has been out for months now has anyone ran it at a track yet? We do know there has been plenty of strip passes though.

Then why even make it? Every news article about it has mentioned Track multiple times regarding it, even going so far to say how much faster it laps than the old one. Seems like someone at Dodge thinks it matters, so you first statement is incorrect. But I do think there are "some" people at Dodge who know this thing is a joke for track use. Maybe it's just a way to offset some of the cost of the Demon's fenders.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Then why even make it? Every news article about it has mentioned Track multiple times regarding it, even going so far to say how much faster it laps than the old one. Seems like someone at Dodge thinks it matters, so you first statement is incorrect. But I do think there are "some" people at Dodge who know this thing is a joke for track use. Maybe it's just a way to offset some of the cost of the Demon's fenders.

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The improved track times were a benefit not the end goal. I'm pretty sure that the end goal was making it faster in the 1/4 mile, as the ZL1 was pressing hard.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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The improved track times were a benefit not the end goal. I'm pretty sure that the end goal was making it faster in the 1/4 mile, as the ZL1 was pressing hard.

Then why are 305s on the front? Why not switch to a stickier tire or the DRs from the Demon. Why not include some of the drag tuning software from the Demon? Why not make all your press statements talk about strip vs track. If improvements in the 1/4 were the goal, then Dodge failed because they could probably squeezed more straight line out of it by dropping front wheel weight and switching to even a non-DR Nitto.

I honestly believe this is just Dodge "throwing a bone" to all the people who will not be able to get a Demon. This way they have the looks with a small improvement in performance, but charge them enough to milk some more profit of the car. I bet it will sell well.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Then why are 305s on the front? Why not switch to a stickier tire or the DRs from the Demon. Why not include some of the drag tuning software from the Demon? Why not make all your press statements talk about strip vs track. If improvements in the 1/4 were the goal, then Dodge failed because they could probably squeezed more straight line out of it by dropping front wheel weight and switching to even a non-DR Nitto.

I honestly believe this is just Dodge "throwing a bone" to all the people who will not be able to get a Demon. This way they have the looks with a small improvement in performance, but charge them enough to milk some more profit of the car. I bet it will sell well.

Take a few moments and answer your own questions keeping in mind that this is not a purpose built drag car like the Demon, let me know what you come up with.

[Speedy1975]

Conundrum for sure IMO. I think it looks terrible and they should have just mini tubbed it, left the 275/40 up front and made a 315 DR an "option" on the order sheet. Then they'd have something. The Hellcat (and Challenger in general) are NOT road course cars and if folks are using them for that, they picked the wrong tool for the job. Now, drag strip is a different story and that's where they shine as one would expect.

My buddy and I did have a little fun the other night. He's got a 17 Z06 and we played a bit. I expected him to pull on me in the Hellcat, but we were side by side from 50 - 150 where I let off. We discussed weight at dinner and he said his Z06 weighed 3700 with him in it. My Hellcat tipped the scales at exactly 4500 WITHOUT me in it. They make more than the advertised 707 so no biggie LOL.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Take a few moments and answer your own questions keeping in mind that this is not a purpose built drag car like the Demon, let me know what you come up with.

I already stated in my previous posts why, they want to give something to those who can't get a Demon, offset some costs of the Demon, and fix the embarrassment of the Scat Pack being faster around the track than its much more expensive sibling. I don't think the ZL1 had anything to do with it. After all, the Hellcat is consistently faster in the 1/4 in review testing. So that was a non issue. Obviously the ZL1 and Hellcat WB aren't even on the same planet in terms of track handling, so I'm more apt to believe the first two reasons were the real business case.

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

Conundrum for sure IMO. I think it looks terrible and they should have just mini tubbed it, left the 275/40 up front and made a 315 DR an "option" on the order sheet. Then they'd have something. The Hellcat (and Challenger in general) are NOT road course cars and if folks are using them for that, they picked the wrong tool for the job. Now, drag strip is a different story and that's where they shine as one would expect.

Completely agree. They weren't seriously going after handling and definitely weren't that serious about improving strip performance. Seems like bean counters had their say.

[Speedy1975]

Unbelievably it also pissed off the Demon buyers LOL. Egos abound at times

You should see all the Hellcats for sale over on Hellcat.org as folks have ordered Demons. Pretty nuts.

I would expect them to make a body adjustment on the next iteration and those that bought in early will lose their butts again upgrading.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

I already stated in my previous posts why, they want to give something to those who can't get a Demon, offset some costs of the Demon, and fix the embarrassment of the Scat Pack being faster around the track than its much more expensive sibling. I don't think the ZL1 had anything to do with it. After all, the Hellcat is consistently faster in the 1/4 in review testing. So that was a non issue. Obviously the ZL1 and Hellcat WB aren't even on the same planet in terms of track handling, so I'm more apt to believe the first two reasons were the real business case.




Completely agree. They weren't seriously going after handling and definitely weren't that serious about improving strip performance. Seems like bean counters had their say.

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I think if Dodge really wanted to produce a Challenger with a track focus they could but they are not interested in Ring times a place where nobody will ever race their vehicle. How many times has Tim Kuniskis said that Dodge's focus is not the track in regards to the Challenger and Charger?

To think that Dodge can't produce a track focused vehicle is comical. Has Chevy come up with anything to challenge the now 3-yro Viper ACR? Even with all the tech toys Chevy throws into the supercharged Corvette and Camaro they still can't unthrone the N/A Viper.

Dodge has the fastest domestic street legal 1/4 mile car in the Hellcat we won't even mention the Demon, the fastest top end muscle car2 and 4 doors, and the absolute fastest track car. Can Chevy claim being faster in any domestic performance venue?

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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I think if Dodge really wanted to produce a Challenger with a track focus they could but they are not interested in Ring times a place where nobody will ever race their vehicle. How many times has Tim Kuniskis said that Dodge's focus is not the track in regards to the Challenger and Charger?

To think that Dodge can't produce a track focused vehicle is comical. Has Chevy come up with anything to challenge the now 3-yro Viper ACR? Even with all the tech toys Chevy throws into the supercharged Corvette and Camaro they still can't unthrone the N/A Viper.

Dodge has the fastest domestic street legal 1/4 mile car in the Hellcat we won't even mention the Demon, the fastest top end muscle car2 and 4 doors, and the absolute fastest track car. Can Chevy claim being faster in any domestic performance venue?

Not once did I say they couldn't build a track car so settle down fanboy. And with their knowledge from the Viper team now idle, it's obviously they didn't really try to make this Hellcat WB handle. Let's not forget there is a new ZR1 coming and ZL1 1LE is very close the performance of the ACR and $40K cheaper.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Not once did I say they couldn't build a track car so settle down fanboy. And with their knowledge from the Viper team now idle, it's obviously they didn't really try to make this Hellcat WB handle. Let's not forget there is a new ZR1 coming and ZL1 1LE is very close the performance of the ACR and $40K cheaper.

Where is the ZL1 1LE or Z06 even close? Hopefully this new ZR1 will be able to do more than 1-lap before going into limp mode due to cooling issues.

Viper shooting for the Ring Record.
http://www.thedrive.com/news/11197/d...ttempt-in-july

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Where is the ZL1 1LE or Z06 even close? Hopefully this new ZR1 will be able to do more than 1-lap before going into limp mode due to cooling issues.

Viper shooting for the Ring Record.
http://www.thedrive.com/news/11197/d...ttempt-in-july

Their Ring times aren't that far apart. Granted Ring times are not really useful to begin with b/c of all the problems with their timing/conditions/drivers/etc... But you can look at their performance metrics from Motor Trend and tell these two are in the same category of track ability. We'd need a H2H to really see but I'm sure the ACR is still faster, but is it $40K+ faster?

Yep definitely reason to be suspect given past history. GM has a lot to prove. Now....