[kwav8r]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

Manufacturers do not try to stack the deck during their fatigue and life-cycle testing. These aren't 1/4 mile times or stopping distances, these are corporate fatigue testing standards. Anyone trying to "stack the deck" on these would be promptly fired.

If you don't want to believe the article I posted, I don't care. A quick google search will show other articles corroborating.

For the sake of argument, OK. I'll take it that Ford ran that engine all out for the equivalent of 175 Daytona 250s. Was that all out for that time frame or was there any starting/stopping/turning/banking involved?? Did this test simulate driving in traffic?? Were temperature conditions controlled or variable?? Was the oil/filtration system modified to allow for this test in a real world scenario (i.e. was oil added)?? Did the test engineer stop the test at any time to eat/shit/go home/sleep?? Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera... You and I will likely never know the truth to these questions.

However, to say that ANY manufacturer doesn't ensure optimum conditions to prove their product defies marketing logic and common sense.

But what the hell do I know, you go ahead and take their word for it when you're writing a check for $25-30K over MSRP. I'd rather wait to see the outcome in a few years time.

As for the ZL1, of which this thread is for, I'll take my chances with a blown, CP, turning slower revs (which beat the 350R in every quantifiable test) and doesn't sound like its gargling marbles. Will that blower eventually fade, yes, but I'd be willing to be it'll last longer than what Ford claims to have done- beat every European car maker at their own FP game with a mere ~5 years of prototyping and testing.

In the meantime, as I said before, time will tell. Nothing outruns physics.

[unavailablezl1]

Originally Posted by NW ZL1

Good to see the official oil consumption statement. Interesting as I noticed the (filter cap-filter box) included in the vehicle of a couple 350's I looked at.

On a side note I sent you a pm. Thx.

Don't see a pm

[Rlhay2]

Originally Posted by unavailablezl1

That is the sad thing about Ford. They do not have an answer for the vette. Never have never will.

2004-2006 Ford GT was a rather formidable opponent for ANY rear drive vehicle.

That shared, this Ford vs Chevrolet debate is just silly.

[unavailablezl1]

Originally Posted by Rlhay2

2004-2006 Ford GT was a rather formidable opponent for ANY rear drive vehicle.

That shared, this Ford vs Chevrolet debate is just silly.

I hear you about the GT and a great car and I respect what it is, but that is apples and oranges compared to the Corvette.

[chain777]

Just want to give props to mustang fanboy for keeping it real. Like mr wyndyhm said, you're fighting an uphill battle, but your doing an excellent job of debating without responding in kind to those who have nothing to add but emotional responses and personal attacks.

There are some here among us who appreciate all cars for what they are, no matter the brand.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

Have you not seen what the maintenance schedule is like on a lot of high revving exotic engines?

Do you not realize that these engines are typical fatigue tested well past their typical intended lifespan?

Per an article on the Boss 302 engine...

http://www.mustangandfords.com/featu...return-of-5-0/

"Ford stated that the test was equivalent to running the Daytona 250 race flat-out more than 175 times—in a row"

This is the standard testing procedure for all of their engines.

That is of course unless you truly believe that Ford would compromise durability testing just to put out a flat plane crank.

The Voodoo is a compromised FPC engine. The firing order is different, due to the single plenum intake, which they used because a dual plenum wouldn't fit. That different firing order required a much heavier crankshaft. I'm not saying they compromised their standards but I would be very surprised if the Voodoo lifespan was the same as the 5.0 or 302.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by chain777

Just want to give props to mustang fanboy for keeping it real. Like mr wyndyhm said, you're fighting an uphill battle, but your doing an excellent job of debating without responding in kind to those who have nothing to add but emotional responses and personal attacks.

There are some here among us who appreciate all cars for what they are, no matter the brand.

I wouldn't call it an "uphill battle"...it is more of a "losing" or "lost" battle. There is no argument that the ZL1 outperformed the GT350R. So the only thing I can see him clinging onto to justify the win is that the GT350R is considered a special car which most of us disagree. Personally, despite what I've said before, I think it is an ok car at best but I wouldn't want to buy one. And I also think Ford is getting killed in the performance arena.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I wouldn't call it an "uphill battle"...it is more of a "losing" or "lost" battle. There is no argument that the ZL1 outperformed the GT350R. So the only thing I can see him clinging onto to justify the win is that the GT350R is considered a special car which most of us disagree. Personally, despite what I've said before, I think it is an ok car at best but I wouldn't want to buy one. And I also think Ford is getting killed in the performance arena.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the question on whether the GT350R should be considered a special car will be decided in future used car values.

If history is any gauge on what values may be you can look at the 1993 Cobra R, and 2000 Cobra R which are presently holding values extremely well and in many cases far exceeding the original msrp. There is no reason to think that this GT350R will not follow the same.

Unfortunately the last product that GM has produced which may be in this same group would be the 1987 GNX, I can't see this 2017 ZL1 being any more desireable than than a 2012/2013 ZL1 is now.

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by chain777

Just want to give props to mustang fanboy for keeping it real. Like mr wyndyhm said, you're fighting an uphill battle, but your doing an excellent job of debating without responding in kind to those who have nothing to add but emotional responses and personal attacks.

There are some here among us who appreciate all cars for what they are, no matter the brand.

I agree. There may be some disagreements, but he hasn't resorted to any name calling or bashing of any kind. I respect that. With a screen name like his on this site, he's definitely asking for it. I kinda think he may actually be a GM man at heart and is just stirring things up for fun. Whether he is or not, I can respect his love for the Shelby. If I could afford and garage one and my ZL1, I'd likely own one, or the possible upcoming GT500. I came a hair from ordering a Hellcat, but decided to wait and see what the new ZL1 would be. Glad I did, and even if the GT500 ends up being a beast that can handle like the Z and has 100 more horespower, I'll still be glad I went ahead and got the Z. I can easily add the extra power to my car or trade if I think I might like the GT better, but I find it highly unlikely I'll trade because the Z looks like the best bang for the buck out there now and for the foreseeable future.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I wouldn't call it an "uphill battle"...it is more of a "losing" or "lost" battle. There is no argument that the ZL1 outperformed the GT350R. So the only thing I can see him clinging onto to justify the win is that the GT350R is considered a special car which most of us disagree. Personally, despite what I've said before, I think it is an ok car at best but I wouldn't want to buy one. And I also think Ford is getting killed in the performance arena.

Only a fan boy would say that, and speak for yourself. Most of us do not disagree.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by chain777

Just want to give props to mustang fanboy for keeping it real. Like mr wyndyhm said, you're fighting an uphill battle, but your doing an excellent job of debating without responding in kind to those who have nothing to add but emotional responses and personal attacks.

There are some here among us who appreciate all cars for what they are, no matter the brand.

I just like talking cars. Sometimes the best discussions can be had with those who are not like minded. These threads would get crazy boring if everyone patted themselves on the back for the first 4 pages.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The Voodoo is a compromised FPC engine. The firing order is different, due to the single plenum intake, which they used because a dual plenum wouldn't fit. That different firing order required a much heavier crankshaft. I'm not saying they compromised their standards but I would be very surprised if the Voodoo lifespan was the same as the 5.0 or 302.

Time will tell. I can't see Ford compromising reliability for the sake of putting in a flat plane crank.

Originally Posted by newmoon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the question on whether the GT350R should be considered a special car will be decided in future used car values.

If history is any gauge on what values may be you can look at the 1993 Cobra R, and 2000 Cobra R which are presently holding values extremely well and in many cases far exceeding the original msrp. There is no reason to think that this GT350R will not follow the same.

Unfortunately the last product that GM has produced which may be in this same group would be the 1987 GNX, I can't see this 2017 ZL1 being any more desireable than than a 2012/2013 ZL1 is now.

Ford does a great job with limited edition cars.

Originally Posted by 17CamaroZL1

I agree. There may be some disagreements, but he hasn't resorted to any name calling or bashing of any kind. I respect that. With a screen name like his on this site, he's definitely asking for it. I kinda think he may actually be a GM man at heart and is just stirring things up for fun. Whether he is or not, I can respect his love for the Shelby. If I could afford and garage one and my ZL1, I'd likely own one, or the possible upcoming GT500. I came a hair from ordering a Hellcat, but decided to wait and see what the new ZL1 would be. Glad I did, and even if the GT500 ends up being a beast that can handle like the Z and has 100 more horespower, I'll still be glad I went ahead and got the Z. I can easily add the extra power to my car or trade if I think I might like the GT better, but I find it highly unlikely I'll trade because the Z looks like the best bang for the buck out there now and for the foreseeable future.

Haha, I have said it before....I have owned far more GM vehicles than Ford. I'm not brand loyal, and had the mustang not struck a chord, I would not have purchased it.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Only a fan boy would say that, and speak for yourself. Most of us do not disagree.

I think many on here would agree that the 350R is a special car just like the 5th gen Z/28 was a special car.

[90503]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I think many on here would agree that the 350R is a special car just like the 5th gen Z/28 was a special car.

I'd give the "win" to the GT350 for name recognition as a nod to some past legacy....but that's about it.

No doubt they have a marketing edge for the GTs, Shelby's, etc. over any of the Camaro nameplates as far as rarity at least. The Z/28 nameplate was a bust as far as commanding ADM, and hopefully the ZL1 1LE will have even less ADM appeal...

ADM is a waste of money and a rip-off. If the GT350 is marketed as a collectable starting out as new, odds are it never will be, especially if it doesn't have any class leading performance to go with it.


.

[kwav8r]

Originally Posted by chain777

Just want to give props to mustang fanboy for keeping it real. Like mr wyndyhm said, you're fighting an uphill battle, but your doing an excellent job of debating without responding in kind to those who have nothing to add but emotional responses and personal attacks.

There are some here among us who appreciate all cars for what they are, no matter the brand.

How is it that he's keeping it real? He routinely refers to articles written by others, who are clearly biased toward the car, as evidence of its specialness and gives opinion (i.e. the car is "special") like its writ or fact without any evidence to back it up. None of that is "real". What is "real" is quantifiable facts about the car, like it lost in every quantifiable category but still "won" by virtue of opinion.

At first I thought his handle was tongue in cheek. Now I'm vacillating between him actually being a true fanboy or him just trying to jerk everyone's chain for sh!ts and grins, likely the truth lies in the middle. That he keeps coming on here to try and bend folks to his opinion is either admirable or annoying- take your pick. Personally, I'm enjoying the banter but annoyed by his lack of objectiveness.

I too appreciate great cars and am not blindly loyal to any manufacturer. But, I appreciate performance and durability over style (and yes, I'll agree the Mustang has better exterior styling). If you want a better performing sports car (more specifically a track car), and want to spend less than $100K, then that has already been settled by facts between the two cars in question. That is keeping it real.