[unavailablezl1]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Well, on the flip side of that then we would probably all have to pay MSRP - any current incentives. People wouldn't be able to score deals below MSRP.

We all know that the MSRP and deals and discounts are games. When you order from Tesla, there is none of that BS. You put your order in, pay what it is, no dealer profit, etc. It is always cheaper to buy anything without middlemen; which is what dealers are doing by making cars more expensive.

The Tesla business model is outlawed in so many states just for that reason. Car dealers in Texas and other states lobby to the state government to keep Tesla out because they don't like it.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by unavailablezl1

We all know that the MSRP and deals and discounts are games. When you order from Tesla, there is none of that BS. You put your order in, pay what it is, no dealer profit, etc. It is always cheaper to buy anything without middlemen; which is what dealers are doing by making cars more expensive.

The Tesla business model is outlawed in so many states just for that reason. Car dealers in Texas and other states lobby to the state government to keep Tesla out because they don't like it.

Agreed, it's totally BS. It shouldn't be up to the government to decide if a company want's to sell directly to the consumer. If you live by the ocean, you'll realize how cheap fresh seafood is if you skip the middlemen.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by unavailablezl1

We all know that the MSRP and deals and discounts are games. When you order from Tesla, there is none of that BS. You put your order in, pay what it is, no dealer profit, etc. It is always cheaper to buy anything without middlemen; which is what dealers are doing by making cars more expensive.

The Tesla business model is outlawed in so many states just for that reason. Car dealers in Texas and other states lobby to the state government to keep Tesla out because they don't like it.

True it is all games. Wonder how it would work with trade ins and what not then

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

The GT350 is still demanding admin, I’d say most people feel it’s living up to the hype just fine.

Any car that has as high of a powerband as a GT350 needs to be revving higher to perform. No one faults Ferrari or Porsche for needing to rev the snot out it for performance, why would you fault the GT350? It’s designed for it…that’s half of the fun.

The Voodoo has to rev because of its displacement. That's all there is to it. Horsepower needs torque, torque needs displacement.

I don't fault the Voodoo for needing higher RPMs. That's the fault of Ford deciding to go with the 5.0 for historical purposes but that doesn't keep the Mustang fanboys from faulting the LSx and LTx for revving to the moon.

I guess the key features to a great engine are eating oil pumps and vibrating like a rock crusher.

[6spdhyperblue]

Fwiw my coyote and lt1 don't burn a drop, but they both did when they were brand new.
I think it's mostly luck if the draw, how you drive, and how it was broken in.
If u rev it out all the time and engine brake the vacuum pulls a lot of oil past the pcv and rings etc


The other thing I don't like about high reving engines is that the AC constantly kicks off at over X rpm. In the heat of summer you can tell when the compressor kicks off because you revved beyond its rpm window

[unavailablezl1]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The Voodoo has to rev because of its displacement. That's all there is to it. Horsepower needs torque, torque needs displacement.

I don't fault the Voodoo for needing higher RPMs. That's the fault of Ford deciding to go with the 5.0 for historical purposes but that doesn't keep the Mustang fanboys from faulting the LSx and LTx for revving to the moon.

I guess the key features to a great engine are eating oil pumps and vibrating like a rock crusher.

Wrong,.. have you ever owned a V8 M3 BMW. You couldn't even feel it running. Just like a Lexus

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The Voodoo has to rev because of its displacement. That's all there is to it. Horsepower needs torque, torque needs displacement.

I don't fault the Voodoo for needing higher RPMs. That's the fault of Ford deciding to go with the 5.0 for historical purposes but that doesn't keep the Mustang fanboys from faulting the LSx and LTx for revving to the moon.

I guess the key features to a great engine are eating oil pumps and vibrating like a rock crusher.

It’s not a fault, it’s an intentional design. The power broad powerband paired with the gear spacing allows the GT350 less gear shifts as you can hold the RPM just a little bit longer than the Camaro. Go back and watch the head to head and you’ll see that the GT350 in several spots holds it RPM while the ZL1 requires an extra shift.

Some of you seem to be thinking high RPMs are a bad thing. Is it a “fault” of Ferrari for using small displacement engines that rev to the moon?

Any by the way, the Voodoo is a 5.2, not a 5.0.

Originally Posted by Nicul15

Fwiw my coyote and lt1 don't burn a drop, but they both did when they were brand new.
I think it's mostly luck if the draw, how you drive, and how it was broken in.
If u rev it out all the time and engine brake the vacuum pulls a lot of oil past the pcv and rings etc


The other thing I don't like about high reving engines is that the AC constantly kicks off at over X rpm. In the heat of summer you can tell when the compressor kicks off because you revved beyond its rpm window

Interesting point about the AC. I have really never noticed the AC kicking off for an extended period of time to affect the interior temperature. In order to do so, you are likely getting into the middle triple digits which is not going to commonly be ventured by most on public roads. You obviously notice, so I’m not trying to invalidate your point.

[catdog]

Originally Posted by unavailablezl1

Wrong,.. have you ever owned a V8 M3 BMW. You couldn't even feel it running. Just like a Lexus

The bmw v8 is a cross-plane crank design, that was a nice engine. I personally preferred the V10 in the M5

The GT350 engine sounds awesome thoughout its rev band, i agree it has a very nice broad useable power above 4500 rpm in spirited driving and is fine below for city/regular driving. It won't give you the shove in the back instant torque that the LT1/LT4 do... It's just a different formula.

No need to insult or hurt others who have made different choice or like their power delivered another way. The ZL1 is like a porsche turbo (minus lag) and the GT350 is like a gt3... no harm done; everybody agrees the turbo is easier but sometimes less fun even though more livable and fearsome and ultimately faster. [PS i think the H2H review was BS]

Still, having the GT350 wailing at 8200 rpm and clicking one shift after another with noise/vibration and crackling exhaust provides as much (and to some more) fun than hearing the brutish loud bass exhaust and instant shove of the ZL1 with the accompanying supercharger whine.

They are both awesome for different and similar reasons, they excite American V8 car enthusiasts. Lets all get along and be thankful these cars are even available... maybe not everyone remembers the sinister mid 70's-mid 80's... moment of silence please

[unavailablezl1]

Originally Posted by catdog

The bmw v8 is a cross-plane crank design, that was a nice engine. I personally preferred the V10 in the M5

The GT350 engine sounds awesome thoughout its rev band, i agree it has a very nice broad useable power above 4500 rpm in spirited driving and is fine below for city/regular driving. It won't give you the shove in the back instant torque that the LT1/LT4 do... It's just a different formula.

No need to insult or hurt others who have made different choice or like their power delivered another way. The ZL1 is like a porsche turbo (minus lag) and the GT350 is like a gt3... no harm done; everybody agrees the turbo is easier but sometimes less fun even though more livable and fearsome and ultimately faster. [PS i think the H2H review was BS]

Still, having the GT350 wailing at 8200 rpm and clicking one shift after another with noise/vibration and crackling exhaust provides as much (and to some more) fun than hearing the brutish loud bass exhaust and instant shove of the ZL1 with the accompanying supercharger whine.

They are both awesome for different and similar reasons, they excite American V8 car enthusiasts. Lets all get along and be thankful these cars are even available... maybe not everyone remembers the sinister mid 70's-mid 80's... moment of silence please

I know it is a cross-plane crank. I have owned both cars. And now all 3. My point was it is also an 8K rpm and smoothest engine, no oil anything problems like the GT350. No vibration like the GT350. Both engines were alike in that they both had not much low end torque. But the M3 went to redline so much faster with no effort.

I liked driving all 3 and if the problems had not been in those other cars, I would still own them. If the ZL1 gives me too much crap, I will get rid of it. I don't buy used cars, I don't keep cars that suck my wallet.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

The GT350 is still demanding admin, I’d say most people feel it’s living up to the hype just fine.

Living up to the hype is a reference to the GT350 and GT350R's actual performance that is more on par with the gen5 Camaro than the gen6.

The GT350 TP is ~equivalent to a gen6 SS-1LE that costs $10k less. The GT350R bested the gen5 Z/28 but fell short in every measure against a base ZL1 that isn't a dedicated track car (and whose lap was 1.7 seconds slower this time... for some reason).

Hard to see value in paying ADM on a GT350 given its premium price relative to its actual ability. Track, strip or street. Illustrates that there are guys willing to pay a premium to own a car that looks like a car that can actually perform...the R. Ford and Mustang buyers seem to have a long history of that type of relationship. Special

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

Any car that has as high of a powerband as a GT350 needs to be revving higher to perform. No one faults Ferrari or Porsche for needing to rev the snot out it for performance, why would you fault the GT350? It’s designed for it…that’s half of the fun.

No doubt and I'm sure its fun as hell to beat the piss out of one. How will they hold up to that? How does the poor low end power band feel on the street?

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by unavailablezl1

Wrong,.. have you ever owned a V8 M3 BMW. You couldn't even feel it running. Just like a Lexus

That comment was sarcastic.

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

It’s not a fault, it’s an intentional design. The power broad powerband paired with the gear spacing allows the GT350 less gear shifts as you can hold the RPM just a little bit longer than the Camaro. Go back and watch the head to head and you’ll see that the GT350 in several spots holds it RPM while the ZL1 requires an extra shift.

It should be able to hold shifts longer, it revs almost 2k higher.

Some of you seem to be thinking high RPMs are a bad thing. Is it a “fault” of Ferrari for using small displacement engines that rev to the moon?

No, but there is a massive difference between Ferrari and Ford, no matter how many comparisons GT350 owners want to make. Ford guys love to throw out the bogus hp/l when discussing engines. Most of the time spent driving for me is below 4k rpm. I'd rather have a usable power band then have to rev it to the moon to get off the red light.

Any by the way, the Voodoo is a 5.2, not a 5.0.

Yes, I am aware. My point was Ford chose 5.0 as their displacement, which limited increasing the displacement much higher.

Replies in bold.

[unavailablezl1]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Living up to the hype is a reference to the GT350 and GT350R's actual performance that is more on par with the gen5 Camaro than the gen6.

The GT350 TP is ~equivalent to a gen6 SS-1LE that costs $10k less. The GT350R bested the gen5 Z/28 but fell short in every measure against a base ZL1 that isn't a dedicated track car (and whose lap was 1.7 seconds slower this time... for some reason).

Hard to see value in paying ADM on a GT350 given its premium price relative to its actual ability. Track, strip or street. Illustrates that there are guys willing to pay a premium to own a car that looks like a car that can actually perform...the R. Ford and Mustang buyers seem to have a long history of that type of relationship. Special

No doubt and I'm sure its fun as hell to beat the piss out of one. How will they hold up to that? How does the poor low end power band feel on the street?

Originally Posted by hotlap

How does the poor low end power band feel on the street?

Not good. Going from a Mustang GT TP to the GT350 was a surprise to me. I missed the low end torque. But the higher rev band is rewarding. You just have to keep it there for any fun. And on the street, it is just not going to happen. And when I did have that chance, the high revs burned 1 qt of oil every 500 miles. When cruising on the highway, not any oil was burned; which does make sense.

But I didn't buy it to cruise on the freeway.

[unavailablezl1]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

That comment was sarcastic.



Replies in bold.

You mean like your statement which was not sarcastic.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I guess the key features to a great engine are eating oil pumps and vibrating like a rock crusher.

[KenB925]

Originally Posted by unavailablezl1

Not good. Going from a Mustang GT TP to the GT350 was a surprise to me. I missed the low end torque. But the higher rev band is rewarding. You just have to keep it there for any fun. And on the street, it is just not going to happen. And when I did have that chance, the high revs burned 1 qt of oil every 500 miles. When cruising on the highway, not any oil was burned; which does make sense.

But I didn't buy it to cruise on the freeway.

My V-10 M5 (revvy engine) also had a thirst for oil.