[crankaholic]

Originally Posted by Dfelux

Ok paid attention going home and now I know what it's doing. W/o rev match it'll still try to hold the revs for the next upshift, but only for like a second or two. I only notice it when skipping gears (i.e. 4th to 6th). Otherwise it doesn't interfere. But it assumes you're not gunna skip a gear

Hmm that's interesting... which mode were you in?

[Marty McFlew]

Originally Posted by shaffe

why did they switch from cable throttles to drive by wire?

Because cable is not dependable. When pulling one end of any cable it is not guaranteed that the other end will also pull. Its some physical quirk that scientist can not explain.

[Dfelux]

Originally Posted by crankaholic

Hmm that's interesting... which mode were you in?

Any mode for me. IMO all this kills manual transmissions...the point of them is to NOT have computer aided assistance, that's where the fun is. This is prob sadly going to be my last manual as I'm sure it's only going to get more and more computer aided

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by shaffe

why did they switch from cable throttles to drive by wire?

My guess - partly because of stability control and traction control, partly because of emissions, and possibly with a slight improvement in mpg in mind. There could be a small benefit for allocating space under the dash and in the engine compartment for the throttle control, and there's be one less physical hole in the firewall (noise reduction).


Norm

[Elite Engineering]

A properly ported TB will make the most difference, but if you have more than 10-20k miles on your GDI engine the disruption of the air flow past the intake valves due to the coking deposits has a very noticeable effect on off idle throttle response. This will require a manual intake valve cleaning (NOT a seafoam/BG/CRC engine running!! That will damage pistons and cylinder walls due to the sand like hard abrasive make up of the deposits) and then our E2-X air/oil separating crankcase evacuation system will prevent up to 85% of those deposits from forming int he future as well as other benefits.


Here is a before and after dyno on a 6.2 LT1 engine at 19k miles to show the impact of these deposits. You won't notice the degradation as it is gradual, but after the cleaning night and day difference:





Any questions on more details, just ask.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Dfelux

Any mode for me. IMO all this kills manual transmissions...the point of them is to NOT have computer aided assistance, that's where the fun is. This is prob sadly going to be my last manual as I'm sure it's only going to get more and more computer aided

Computer "assistance" is likely to get in the way of some driving styles more than others.

But using that as a reason to not get a MT in the future would be to cut your nose off to spite your face. Automatic transmission powertrains are even more heavily under computer control, you just don't see it as clearly.


Norm

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Computer "assistance" is likely to get in the way of some driving styles more than others.

But using that as a reason to not get a MT in the future would be to cut your nose off to spite your face. Automatic transmission powertrains are even more heavily under computer control, you just don't see it as clearly.


Norm

What manual enthusiasts will eventually have (assuming the on-demand driving economy with robo driving doesn't tank car ownership) is automatics that allow manual shifting instantly ...like how supercars have now. So a minor change in driving style while that transitions into more and more mainstream cars and then back to playing with shifting like you used to except no need to deal with a stupid third pedal.

That's the future. Not traditional manuals.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

What manual enthusiasts will eventually have (assuming the on-demand driving economy with robo driving doesn't tank car ownership) is automatics that allow manual shifting instantly ...like how supercars have now. So a minor change in driving style while that transitions into more and more mainstream cars and then back to playing with shifting like you used to except no need to deal with a stupid third peddle.

"Instant manual shifting" won't actually be 'instant' by the time they figure out how to make all shifts smooth and barely noticeable. Never mind that making a polite request with a glorified microswitch to tell some computer what you'd like it to do for you isn't the same thing at all. At the very best, it's a dainty-touch, no feel, video-game simulation of the real thing that's closer to the silly rotary knobs now being used for transmission control in a few cars.

I think having to ride the pedal that's used for stopping in order to go (slowly, in heavy traffic here) is in its own category of stupid. Makes us even.


Norm

[prod]

So is this the same as the PED "feature" GM put in most cars beginning around 2005? I thought that was easily tuned out....

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

"Instant manual shifting" won't actually be 'instant' by the time they figure out how to make all shifts smooth and barely noticeable. Never mind that making a polite request with a glorified microswitch to tell some computer what you'd like it to do for you isn't the same thing at all. At the very best, it's a dainty-touch, no feel, video-game simulation of the real thing that's closer to the silly rotary knobs now being used for transmission control in a few cars.

I think having to ride the pedal that's used for stopping in order to go (slowly, in heavy traffic here) is in its own category of stupid. Makes us even.


Norm

I dont agree with your premise about instant shifting. Most extremely expensive to moderately expensive cars are already going or have gone this route and are doing it. It then becomes an engineering issue to refine it so it can be done cheaper.

Though you are racing against electric, which can end up having a totally different transmission feel and setup. And racing against computer driving and against the driving on demand industry.

In no future does the traditional manual transmission survive.

[Dfelux]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Computer "assistance" is likely to get in the way of some driving styles more than others.

But using that as a reason to not get a MT in the future would be to cut your nose off to spite your face. Automatic transmission powertrains are even more heavily under computer control, you just don't see it as clearly.


Norm

Yeah, I know auto's are more heavily computer controlled, but your last few words is what pulls me to them "you just don't see it as clearly" . Driving the wife's SUV I manual shift it all the time even though it's an auto, so that's how I see my future. Auto, but manual shifting. I'll let the computer deal with the crap throttle vs rev mating every gear with it. Tour and sport I literally have to tap the pedal to the floor to get the rebs high enough for a downshift. Track throttle is nice, but switching through modes constantly for a smooth ride gets old (and it still has the 'from a stop lag' anyways)

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

I dont agree with your premise about instant shifting.

In what respect? Or are you looking at the shift in isolation from everything else? Engine rpms cannot instantaneously drop or rise to the correct speed, so you need a modicum of clutch modulation (either by the human or by finite speed of hydraulic or electric actuation) to smooth things out. Which takes time. Your fingers will be done with their part and you'll be left waiting for the electronics and hydraulics to finish up with theirs. Been there.

You are aware that the Camaro's paddle shifters already have a reputation for being a bit 'laggy' in full manual control mode?

Most extremely expensive to moderately expensive cars are already going or have gone this route and are doing it. It then becomes an engineering issue to refine it so it can be done cheaper.

You're probably talking about DSG transmissions here rather than conventional automatics, and while they work very well for high performance driving, they're still at least occasionally harsh in certain easy-driving situations that you'd probably encounter on a daily basis. Refinement for mainstream acceptance of operation would have to precede refinement for cost before a mfr could even think of incorporating it into affordable (but still niche) cars like yours and mine.

Though you are racing against electric, which can end up having a totally different transmission feel and setup. And racing against computer driving and against the driving on demand industry

If I have to jump ship (mfr) the next time I buy a new car just to keep a conventional MT it won't be the first time that's happened. Or the second. Probably not even the fourth.

In no future does the traditional manual transmission survive.

I get that you're an early adopter of new tech, and that you specifically wouldn't want any of your cars to have a conventional MT. That's fine . . . but what is it about that sort of outlook that refuses to accept that others don't share it and won't jump on board no matter how much encouragement/begging/doom-threatening ensues?


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Dfelux

Yeah, I know auto's are more heavily computer controlled, but your last few words is what pulls me to them "you just don't see it as clearly" . Driving the wife's SUV I manual shift it all the time even though it's an auto, so that's how I see my future. Auto, but manual shifting. I'll let the computer deal with the crap throttle vs rev mating every gear with it. Tour and sport I literally have to tap the pedal to the floor to get the rebs high enough for a downshift. Track throttle is nice, but switching through modes constantly for a smooth ride gets old (and it still has the 'from a stop lag' anyways)

Push come to shove, I might have to settle for a DSG. But I'd never use it in any full automatic mode and I'd always begrudge the soft and slightly vague-ish way it gets rolling from a full stop.

Seems you've found out that AT's can be rev-matched in spite of themselves. Near as I can tell, it's a pretty small club, welcome aboard.


Norm

[crankaholic]

Originally Posted by Dfelux

... Track throttle is nice, but switching through modes constantly for a smooth ride gets old (and it still has the 'from a stop lag' anyways)

Just curious, why would you need to switch modes constantly..? It is annoying that the car doesn't start in track mode, but it's two button presses away.

The biggest issue I have with the car is that there are no dedicated buttons for suspension, steering and exhaust modes The TC and mode buttons could have been made half as wide and three buttons to cycle through modes of the individual components could have been placed there. I'm almost tempted to figure out the signals being sent by the touchscreen and wiring up something that would replicate them.