[OminouSS]

There are many good things to being one of the first guys in the world to own & drive the amazing ZL1 Camaro. The prestige, attention, setting benchmark lap times at each track, hot women flocking all over me & the car. Okay, reality check...

One thing that is not fun is explaining to the aftermarket over and over and over again that my brakes are NOT the same as the Gen 5 ZL1, or the Gen Z/28, or the CTS-V, or the [insert model here]. They simply are not. So, I continued to beat on the stock pads & rotors, convincing myself that they were adequate - which, perhaps in the early stages they actually were. But when you start really pushing the car harder and harder, braking later and later, eventually you are going to find the limits of the stock equipment. That was where I was. Spending $400 per OEM rotor and the same for a set of stock brembo pads. Add that up and you have almost $2,000 in a consumable expense for 10 typical track days....BEFORE tires.

I was running into a couple different problems with the OEM setup.

First and foremost, the braking was just adequate; or so I thought. It was not until I found a race pad that actually fit that I was finally able to understand how well this car could stop. The OEM pads fade at the 12 minute mark at the variety of tracks I frequent. That is Buttonwillow, Laguna Seca, Thunderhill 3m, Thunderhill West and Thunderhill 5m. Yes, I consider the TH variants to be different tracks. They are just that different. A pad that goes away this soon is not viable for my driving style. I won't go as far to say it's risky but I will say I have to force myself to drive differently at the 1/2 to 3/4 way through each TT session. That means slower lap times.

The second problem was the density of the rotor. Even when I put a race pad in, it chewed it to shreds in short fashion. When I pushed the OEM pads, I over-heated the rotor to the point of no return. Unless you own your own brake lathe, you are likely to spend time finding a brake shop who will actually turn your rotors when they come in with major heat signatures. Look at the picture below. You can see the OEM front rotor before turning. All those black spots are heat signature. That is where the metallurgy is affected (or so It's been explained to me) and becomes less affective and durable.




Same with the back rotor:




Once they are turned you can see how deep that signature went:






It is a real bummer to have a rotor with nearly all it's turnable life be denied at the counter. So, needless to say I have been through a few expensive OEM rotor purchases.

RB to the rescue:

So, I set off to find pads and rotors that could withstand the punishment I was sure to dish out while on the track. That's when I discovered there was not a lot to choose from. Like nothing. Zero. 3 days of calling around, I was turned away with the 'we don't make anything yet for that application'. Mostly, that translated to 'we don't know what you have so we are not going to try'. Until I got somebody on the line at Racing Brake. Their response was much different. They listened to my problem and took my information down and said 'we'll be in touch'. I hung up the phone only slightly hopeful at this point. I was pretty dejected at this juncture. But, what could it hurt to wait & see?

They called me the next day and told me they worked out a solution. Actually, they worked out a couple solutions. And we tried several until we hit the jackpot. There were a couple of hang ups here & there as in their development they discovered very small differences in things that made it a true nightmare from their standpoint, i.e. hats being 2 mm different than Z/28 or pads 4mm to long on the Gen 5 ZL1 - all points I should not be held accountable in fact checking as I don't recall the actual numbers, but the illustration is sound. The ZL1 390mm Brembo system we have is just different. Even different than the damned "ZL1" Brembo kit GM offers as an upgrade to their SS. It was a logistical nightmare getting brake parts for this car. But RB kept plugging away. I was not easy on them either as if i did not like a pad formula, I would tell them. And they would send something new for me to try.

The Hero pad:

I finally put in a different set of their track compound pads that they had to custom cut for our ZL1 application. HO LEE $@&%. I had no idea this car could brake so well! Right out of the box, the modulation on these pads were incredible on the track. Hell, I knew something was special about them when I bedded them in driving down the back streets. They felt different than the other pads I tried. The sounded different. They SMELLED different. But on the track is where I was left with my jaw dropped. The initial bite was aggressive but totally manageable. Totally progressive. The full stopping force would nearly put you through the front windshield yet still managed to play nice with ABS. To get there, it required very predictable force - unlike my experiences with other company's track pads I used on the C5. Those were all or nothing and that usually meant total degradation. After a lap of driving with these new pads, I knew I had something special. I spent the day retraining my pedal skills as I could count on the car to stop later and with consistency through the entire 25 minute session. There was zero brake fade. None. In fact, I shaved seconds off my PB with just the pad swap alone and I did that on the 8th lap in the middle of the 90 degree afternoon session. I can't stress enough how significant that fade-less characteristic is of this track pad.

Aftermath:

So, I thought for certain the pads would be chewed up or there would be streaks of brake dust down the sides of my car. I am pretty anal about getting right on that so as not to allow brake compounds to ruin my $8000 forged wheel or the paint job on my car. To my surprise, there was less dust than OEM pads. Furthermore, the pads were entirely in tact and, upon inspection the next day I had not even burned through 2mm of material. That to me was amazing. I don't know how well they managed heat at this point because I took the new Brembo rotors off and reinstalled some used OEM rotors for the purpose of testing this pad. But the copper-ish backing pad is legit thick and I would not be surprised if there was much less heat transfer to the pistons with this pad. The rings did not look worse. I do have some RB rings that I will be trying out very soon. They should be much denser than the OEM rings and should, therefore hold up much better to the heat. I am banking on that as the OEM rotors I am buying are seriously braking the bank. As I mentioned, everything seems to be a custom fit for these brakes so RB is cutting new hats that will work with their rings. I will certainly return to this thread to update it based on my experience with the RB rotors as well as the endurance of the pads.

Moral of the story. I am a paying customer. RB worked a solution to a real problem I presented when others would not. That resulted in a product that is much better than OEM and something that made me significantly faster. The product development is on-going for this application and I am thankful we now have options that are not just good, but great.

Don't flame me for spelling. I just typed in this stupid box for an hour and don't have the patience for proof reading or spell checking.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Subscribed. I always like a good brake story/information.

[OminouSS]

Ryephile. I know you're stopping by so to answer your question from the other thread: Several consumed OEM pads and two rotor sets. Now Ive moved to aftermarket, per the story above. The first pads I tried were full metallics. They are going for a proprietary street/track compound that is used on the CCM's. I think they're onto something there. But they are keeping that R&D private for now. The pads I wrote about are a different compound than the full sintered. Hopefully Warren can confirm but I think the part # is PD1395-41. I used their semi-metallic in the back. Part # PD592-397. Great compliment to the track pad up front. It improved trail-braking measurably (no pun intended) and did not EFF with eLSD or ABS.

[Mr. Meh]

I was just reading the RB complete thread the other day about the hats, CCM pieces/pads, etc.

Will be following this as well as I too had called up for OEM full pad/rotor replacements and asked the guy to repeat that, surely thinking he'd looked at the wrong car.

Nope.. Our Rotors/Pads really are that much $$$ as OEM pieces.

[mbar]

Which pad/s let you down so far?

[OminouSS]

Originally Posted by mbar

Which pad/s let you down so far?

On the Camaro? OEM. But I don't know if it is really defined as letting me down as I think they met expectations for a stock offering that is designed for 90% street use. I can't provide specific feedback from the other companies because, as far as I know there still is nothing offered by the other brands. I have both poor and great experiences with other brands on different cars but there is no purpose in resurfacing that (ok, that pun WAS intended and horrible).

[mbar]

Originally Posted by OminouSS

On the Camaro? OEM. But I don't know if it is really defined as letting me down as I think they met expectations for a stock offering that is designed for 90% street use. I can't provide specific feedback from the other companies because, as far as I know there still is nothing offered by the other brands. I have both poor and great experiences with other brands on different cars but there is no purpose in resurfacing that (ok, that pun WAS intended and horrible).

I'm probobly beating a dead horse, but isn't the Corvette Z06 use the same pads?

[Ryephile]

First, thank you OminouSS for posting details and pictures and your feedback. You answered a bunch of questions that have been floating out there for a bit. So, Thank you!


---> The stock pads are basically equivalent to the Ferodo DS2500, which is a medium duty autocross pad. It's not suited for track work. No big surprise you smoked those.

---> What do you mean [some undisclosed] track pad "chewed to shreds" the OEM rotor? What does that mean? Some of us 1LE guys with the 370mm rotors are finding the OEM rotor starts to heat-crack after a few track days using high mu track pads. Is that what you found too?

---> FYI, Carbotech and G-Loc will make pads for any backing plate, you just have to send them example backing plates as a starting point. Not a big deal at all. Also, with the 1395 backing plate, you can already run Hawk DTC-70's. Looks like the 6g ZL1 pad shape is the same as the C6 ZR1 pad shape.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by mbar

I'm probobly beating a dead horse, but isn't the Corvette Z06 use the same pads?

C7 Z06 Iron discs use the same rotor, caliper, and pad as the SS 1LE, which is the smaller 370mm rotor. The ZL1's 390mm rotor uses a bigger pad to cover more swept area.

[PolynesianPowerhouse]

Hey OminuSS, you misspelled....

awesome feed back though, uce! these rotors are next on the list for myself after I get to the stainless lines and upgraded pads.

its good to see the advancements of the aftermarket, instead of just hearing the stock specs rehashed of how much stiffer vs the 5th gen, or the brochure in other words.

people are finding the limits to the car, and if not the limits, places that can be improved either for performance, efficiency, or longevity.

appreciate the feedback as always

[dcxeternal]

Cant wait for further updates!

I havent taken delivery of my ZL1 yet but I hope all the R&D is done before I finish my break in period

I experienced serious brake fade once coming down the back straight at NJMP into the first corner. Good thing they had a good paved runoff!

[mr965]

Thank you for your info. Did you contact Cobalt Friction?

[OminouSS]

Originally Posted by mbar

I'm probobly beating a dead horse, but isn't the Corvette Z06 use the same pads?

Originally Posted by Ryephile

First, thank you OminouSS for posting details and pictures and your feedback. You answered a bunch of questions that have been floating out there for a bit. So, Thank you!

---> What do you mean [some undisclosed] track pad "chewed to shreds" the OEM rotor? What does that mean? Some of us 1LE guys with the 370mm rotors are finding the OEM rotor starts to heat-crack after a few track days using high mu track pads. Is that what you found too?

Quite welcome! I'm happy to share my experience so some have a better starting point if they need.

In my experience thus far, I am left with the impression that the stock rotors are just way too soft for my track driving style. But I'm not seeing any cracking yet. Just excessive wear & heat. That may be more of a knock on my driving but if you SS and 1LE guys are experiencing some challenges I at least don't feel alone in this dance. The manufacturer developed a car to perform excellent in the hands of 90% of their handlers. Great on-street mannerisms and good track capabilities. I'm outside that target audience.

For those who need them I am finding that aggressive pads put the hurt on OEM rotors. I don't know yet but I am confident this is not a pad brand issue. FWIW I've used DTC 70's on past rotors (different car) that either obliterated themselves in short fashion or killed a rotor just as quick. I've also had success with them and Raybestos and, I have two boxes of Carbotechs on the shelves for the C5. So this is not a new problem for me, personally. But I don't want to get ahead of myself. The Brembo rotors talk a lot with anything harder than the soft stock pad. I really think we're going to discover it is more about the rotors than the pads. A proper rotor density would cause wear to the pad more so than I'm seeing; right now it's the other way around with more wear to the rotor. But I am about to find out when I get my fresh new RB rings mounted up.

Anyway, what IS evident is the increased capabilities between pad disciplines. Forward progress for certain. 3 months ago I was starting to think I was in the dark with a 'wait & see' cloud consuming me.

[OminouSS]

Originally Posted by mr965

Thank you for your info. Did you contact Cobalt Friction?

I honestly don't remember. I was to the point of taking off my existing rotors and pads and just sending them to one of the big names to speed up the manufacturing. I dialed RB after 10 or so calls to other industry experts (and a lengthy search on the Nissan and Corvette forums). They were willing to immediately order OEM parts from GM to do the R&D side of things which saved me the down time and car rental. I thought that was good business practice and great customer service. My big need was the rings as I had toasted mine and these things cost $792.44 PER CORNER from GM. BTW, I cannot thank Rodgers Chevrolet enough for their amazing customer service in the parts dept. I would not have made at least two events if it were not for their expedited service and having PARTS IN STOCK. Anyway, Warren at RB was busy on a project with a Porche racing team but dropped what he was doing to start on my solution. I had parts in 3 days.