[Zabo]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Buick and Cadillac both can be seen competing somewhat with Lincoln. Ford doesn't have an all-out premium luxury brand like Cadillac, instead, they two entry-level luxury brands (if you can even consider Mercury as luxury), one of which (Lincoln) is attempting to move upmarket.

In a sense, Ford really doesn't have much to compete with Cadillac.

Figured that was the case, but IMO I think that Caddy, for all out lux..needs go to up market even more. I can kinda see Buick getting Mercury-itis with all the new vehicles coming out.

Prolly why Ford shoved Lincoln upmarket.

Never really been thought of this way, but originally..what were cadillac and Lincoln competing against initially? Think 1910-1920s (ho boy..)

Bentley? Buggati? (well.. maybe not but..) Rolls?

So maybe Caddy needs to go WAY up market while Buick takes the current Caddy place as the affordable luxury. Maybe it's time for a Domestic luxury renaissance? Step up the game for the imports?

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Zabo

Figured that was the case, but IMO I think that Caddy, for all out lux..needs go to up market even more. I can kinda see Buick getting Mercury-itis with all the new vehicles coming out.

Prolly why Ford shoved Lincoln upmarket.

Never really been thought of this way, but originally..what were cadillac and Lincoln competing against initially? Think 1910-1920s (ho boy..)

Bentley? Buggati? (well.. maybe not but..) Rolls?

So maybe Caddy needs to go WAY up market while Buick takes the current Caddy place as the affordable luxury. Maybe it's time for a Domestic luxury renaissance? Step up the game for the imports?

I agree, with Ford's positioning of Lincoln and GM's handling of Cadillac, Buick and Mercury will become competitors.

Cadillac and Lincoln competed with nobody. They WERE luxury. Unfortunately, the influx of foreign competition and GM/Ford's own stupidity put both brands' reputations in the dumps. With the new Lincolns and Cadillacs, both automakers are trying to restore their luxury brands back to their former glory.

It would appear as though GM is working on Buick first in order to pull in some more money to work on Cadillac. The recent/future onslaught of new Buick products seems to allude to this, in fact, in two or three years, almost the entire Buick line-up will be all-new, consisting of Astra, Regal, LaCrosse, and Enclave. There's also news of a smaller-than-Enclave Gamma-II based crossover in the works which we saw in the "May the Best Car Win" commercial. Buick's also apparently planning to use the Two-Mode Hybrid system in a future vehicle.

Cadillac has the Alpha-based RWD ATS in the works, and development of the next-gen CTS (which is rumored to be on an extended Alpha platform) has already begun. There's a rumor that Lutz and other high-ranking GM executives are pushing for the XTS to go on Zeta instead of EpII as originally planned, a rumor that's strengthened further by many of Zeta's opponents in the Ren. Center leaving their positions...or being asked to leave. SRX is already doing quite well despite many people's criticisms over its FWD-based drivetrain.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

There's a rumor that Lutz and other high-ranking GM executives are pushing for the XTS to go on Zeta instead of EpII as originally planned, a rumor that's strengthened further by many of Zeta's opponents in the Ren. Center leaving their positions...or being asked to leave.

Thank GOD....I was afraid for the longest time that there was a big enough movement against Zeta that would kill it (and it's so young and fruitful). If those people go bye-bye, then Zeta and Alpha can be GM's RWD duo. And quite a impressive team they would make.

Truth be told, I like Camaro as-it-is..I think it's the perfect size. Besides, in all reality, you can't shrink it anymore than it is without sacrificing interior space, cargo space, or the Long-hood-short-deck proportion that is a mandatory design feature of all pony cars. People complain that they want it to be 3-series sized...well...chop off that long nose we all love, and you have a 3-series-sized Camaro...that doesn't look like a Camaro anymore. If it was to be placed on Alpha, I suspect it would be on LWB Alpha...and so we wouldn't see a huge difference in attributes like weight and size. Kinda off-topic...

But anyways, Alpha + Zeta == Kicka$$!! Because anything developed with use for a Cadillac in mind is going to be super well-mannered...But then give it to Chevy, and they can spice it up with the benefits of the Caddy-treatment as a side-effect.


This is really good to hear. I think cars like the Cruze, Volt, and new-new Malibu will clear a lot of space for RWD in GM's future lineup.

[Zabo]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

I agree, with Ford's positioning of Lincoln and GM's handling of Cadillac, Buick and Mercury will become competitors.

Cadillac and Lincoln competed with nobody. They WERE luxury. Unfortunately, the influx of foreign competition and GM/Ford's own stupidity put both brands' reputations in the dumps. With the new Lincolns and Cadillacs, both automakers are trying to restore their luxury brands back to their former glory.

Dunno which would be more awesome.. the Enclave wiping the floor with the Lexus counterpart (oh wait, it already is..) OR the XTS competing with Bentleys..

<_<

From the Cimmaron to..holy crap?

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

This is really good to hear. I think cars like the Cruze, Volt, and new-new Malibu will clear a lot of space for RWD in GM's future lineup.

CAFE is no longer a concern with RWD vehicles. With the proper engineering (look to the Holden folks for this, they're very good in this department), a Commodore can hit upwards of 30 MPG with the new 3.0L SIDI V6. Why? Holden figured out how to make the engine generate adequate torque at a lower RPM, a problem with the US-spec 3.0L which has led to dismal fuel economy ratings for the LaCrosse. This fix has led one of our Australia correspondents at GMI to test drive a 3.0L equipped Commodore at a Holden special event. He was able to achieve 33 or 34 MPG on the highway in a RWD full size sedan. Granted, he wasn't pushing the vehicle as hard as he would've wanted, but 30+ MPG is quite respectable.

[MikesZ]

Originally Posted by Zabo

I wouldn't say it will be so much the 'big bad gubment' more than it will be the reality of our situation. If we can decrease bulk and size while still keeping the vehicle practical, useful, and as powerful as their larger brethren then why NOT do it? Heck, it'd bring costs down on materials and allow more efficient production? We could still use the smaller V8s and higher displacement 6es to create insane track and 1320 vehicles without whining bout 'where'd mah displament go?'.

So using the Alpha for the 2+2 situation is almost a no brainer. Zeta can move to full size and Eppy can stay midsize. I'm still miffed that they canned the Kappa, but in all reality it didn't have a place in GM's future business plan.

Ford's moving in the same direction; moving the Fiesta and Euro Spec Focus to international placement. With the Spark and Cruze, I think Chevy has the ground covered:

Small Car Thing: Spark - Fiesta
Small Sedan/Coupe: Cruze - Focus
Mid Size Sedan: Malibu - Fusion
Full Size Sedan: Impala - Taurus
2+2 Coupe: Camaro - Mustang
Utility Van: Express - Transit
Truck: Silverado - F150
Post Mom-mobile: Equinox - Edge
Mom Mobile: Traverse - Upcoming Explorer rehash
Mini Mom Mobile: Orlando - Flex
I have a farm: Suburban - Expedition

I'm over 60 with too much money: Corvette - ...Ford?

Right there GM has it's eye on the ball.

Now where's Fen to explain where Caddy and Buick's vehicles fit into the mess.

Not sure what you mean by "the reality of our situation". If you've ever rented a car in Europe it quickly becomes apparent (as you shell out the Euros at the petrol stations) what happens without fuel subsidies. The good news is there is an abundance of fun-to-drive smaller, fuel-efficient vehicles in Europe. I'm anxious to see what develops from the Alpha small RWD platform for us over here.

[Zabo]

Originally Posted by MikesZ

Not sure what you mean by "the reality of our situation". If you've ever rented a car in Europe it quickly becomes apparent (as you shell out the Euros at the petrol stations) what happens without fuel subsidies. The good news is there is an abundance of fun-to-drive smaller, fuel-efficient vehicles in Europe. I'm anxious to see what develops from the Alpha small RWD platform for us over here.

I wasn't using "the reality of our situation" really in terms of gas or zomgmpgs! but more "hey, do I need the Tahoe when a Traverse will do the job?

People are seeing once more that they don't need xbawksheug cars like the 80s. The upside to this, we're getting sportier and fun to drive cars to satisfy the wide audience that wants such a car without having to make the sacrifices that had to be made during the late 70s and early 80s..

IE: Cadillac Cimmaron. <_<

[brandotron]

Looks like a Crossfire

[Zabo]

Originally Posted by brandotron

Looks like a Crossfire

Crossfire didn't have 4 seats.

[Paperer]

Yep, she's nice.

[brandotron]

Originally Posted by Zabo

Crossfire didn't have 4 seats.

Neither does your mom. FACE!

[Zabo]

Originally Posted by brandotron

Neither does your mom. FACE!

F**ker..

[brandotron]

Originally Posted by Zabo

F**ker..

[MikesZ]

Originally Posted by Zabo

I wasn't using "the reality of our situation" really in terms of gas or zomgmpgs! but more "hey, do I need the Tahoe when a Traverse will do the job?

People are seeing once more that they don't need xbawksheug cars like the 80s. The upside to this, we're getting sportier and fun to drive cars to satisfy the wide audience that wants such a car without having to make the sacrifices that had to be made during the late 70s and early 80s..

IE: Cadillac Cimmaron. <_<

Well manufacturers are well capable of building fun, functional, stylish vehicles with plenty of power and good fuel-efficiency...the point was that Europe has been way ahead in this area because they needed to be...fuel is very expensive there. We have been spoiled with relatively low fuel prices here (very low compared to Europe) and until recently US auto manufacturers and US consumers had little incentive to give up there large/inefficient vehicles.