[WhyUMad1LE]

Originally Posted by bucknerbuck2

Some of you guys need to price out just a GTS Cayman. 90k!
But they are worth 84k a year later
It's strange but I don't doubt you could buy a new Porsche and sell 12 months later and it be less than a loaded Camaro 2SS out of pocket.... because Porsche doesn't do 20% off sales and their CPO program holds residuals strong
I ordered and bought a c7 in middle of July and it's now worth 45k. So let's say it's depreciated 20k in 20 months and 4K miles. I would have been better off to buy a 911 GTS for 130k and it would be worth more than 110k?
....but let's not forget about sales tax!!
Bottom line is the value for performance with GM performance cars is unreal, especially when the numbers they lay down are giant slaying. However, the game of driving new high performance cars isn't cheap no matter the flavor you choose.

The Cayman and 911 GTS didn't lose much value because Porsche discontinued the naturally aspirated 6 cylinder. The new models will depreciate per normal.

[WhyUMad1LE]

Originally Posted by harmonyp

Local dealership just got in a new mosaic black ZL1 last week and I went to see it. As I was taking it in, I reflected on the changes from the C6 to C7 corvette. Chevy made a grandiose, bold statement with the C7 - the C7 is revolutionary, not evolutionary coming from the C6.

As I sat in the new ZL1, I was comparing to the 2015 ZL1 I drove up in. Aside from being tighter and a little on the claustrophobic side, the interior design feels so much like my 2015. From the exterior, the car is beautiful, but there is nothing about it that stands out and makes a statement. It really feels like some of the edginess of the Gen5 was removed to get the Gen6. I really love my 2015 and am not ready to move on yet, but I think if the Gen6 really "knocked my socks off", and felt like a new model, rather than just a newer / same model - I may have been tempted.

For folks with a Gen5 ZL1, don't know how many will be tempted to dump their Gen5's for a Gen6. Just my impression, I may be totally off.

Keep in mind the C6 came out in 2005 while the 5th gen started 2010.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by bucknerbuck2

Bottom line is the value for performance with GM performance cars is unreal, especially when the numbers they lay down are giant slaying. However, the game of driving new high performance cars isn't cheap no matter the flavor you choose.

Originally Posted by cleoent

Cts v was a bargain a few years ago, today they are almost 100k. How does this happen?

You might not like the answer...

Cadillac made a conscious, public decision to arbitrarily raise prices to be more in line with competitive offerings from BMW and Mercedes. The CTS is meant to go up against the 5 series, but was priced like a 3 series. Now, Cadillacs are still cheaper, but more closely in line. The M5 (CTS-V competitor) starts at 94,000.

What I don't like is that they're letting the over-inflated German cars dictate the price of the market. We all know now, looked at Motortrend's Camaro v M4 head-to-head program...that they don't offer equipment/performance enough to justify their prices. So why did Cadillac had to follow them there?

Originally Posted by harmonyp

Local dealership just got in a new mosaic black ZL1 last week and I went to see it. As I was taking it in, I reflected on the changes from the C6 to C7 corvette. Chevy made a grandiose, bold statement with the C7 - the C7 is revolutionary, not evolutionary coming from the C6.

As I sat in the new ZL1, I was comparing to the 2015 ZL1 I drove up in. Aside from being tighter and a little on the claustrophobic side, the interior design feels so much like my 2015. From the exterior, the car is beautiful, but there is nothing about it that stands out and makes a statement. It really feels like some of the edginess of the Gen5 was removed to get the Gen6. I really love my 2015 and am not ready to move on yet, but I think if the Gen6 really "knocked my socks off", and felt like a new model, rather than just a newer / same model - I may have been tempted.

For folks with a Gen5 ZL1, don't know how many will be tempted to dump their Gen5's for a Gen6. Just my impression, I may be totally off.

I think there will be varying opinion...some overshadowed by an emotional attachment for our own cars. But that doesn't mean the new stuff is bad.

I had a 2012 ZL1, and then popped into a 2014 1LE...I liked the interior and exterior styling better in the '14...plus I got Nav, and Recaro, etc...

Then the 6th gen came out - and I was astonished at how "next level" it felt to me. Side by side, I think the 5th gen looks bloated and clunky (we all know they're not)...and the 6th gen borrows heavily on Stingray styling cues for the hood, and some other bits...giving it this sharp, sculpted look. I love it.

Then I drove the thing a few different times, and it won me over 100x...so much more nimble, lighter, faster-feeling. And it seems like all the major complaints people had of the 5th gen...we either gone, or addressed in this new model.

I am glad they chose to go evolutionary with the styling, rather than revolutionary...I always admired cars that were able to keep their character and soul while being redesigns and upgraded over the years....I think of Corvette, Porsche, and Aston Martin off the top of my head.

We consumers are so obsessed with "different", and "new"...that manufacturers go to lengths to fake it. It drives me nuts sometimes. You know how many "new" cars are on 20 year old chassis using 15 year old engines?

So...what's wrong with just "better"? /rant

[RobertSmith]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

You might not like the answer...

Cadillac made a conscious, public decision to arbitrarily raise prices to be more in line with competitive offerings from BMW and Mercedes. The CTS is meant to go up against the 5 series, but was priced like a 3 series. Now, Cadillacs are still cheaper, but more closely in line. The M5 (CTS-V competitor) starts at 94,000.

What I don't like is that they're letting the over-inflated German cars dictate the price of the market. We all know now, looked at Motortrend's Camaro v M4 head-to-head program...that they don't offer equipment/performance enough to justify their prices. So why did Cadillac had to follow them there? :rolleyes

That's a shame because I really like the ATS-V but then I look at the Camaro and can't justify the price difference. I don't think this is a viable long term strategy for Cadillac.

For a while now the average BMW is not much like the cars that built their reputation. But they are powerful luxury status symbols and Cadillac won't win that one.

[Boilermaker128]

ATSV needs a new cluster. Its for sure holding back possible buyers. Looks like it came straight out of a 10k hyundai.

[laynlo15]

Why are they waiting for the A10? It will be bad ass and M6's will be seeing lots of tail lights? If you want to drag race the A10 is the only way to go, M6 for fun on the street and road course. Fast in a straight line and outrun the hell cat, A10 will do the trick.

[MoreSpeed]

Originally Posted by bucknerbuck2

Some of you guys need to price out just a GTS Cayman. 90k!
But they are worth 84k a year later
It's strange but I don't doubt you could buy a new Porsche and sell 12 months later and it be less than a loaded Camaro 2SS out of pocket.... because Porsche doesn't do 20% off sales and their CPO program holds residuals strong
I ordered and bought a c7 in middle of July and it's now worth 45k. So let's say it's depreciated 20k in 20 months and 4K miles. I would have been better off to buy a 911 GTS for 130k and it would be worth more than 110k?
....but let's not forget about sales tax!!
Bottom line is the value for performance with GM performance cars is unreal, especially when the numbers they lay down are giant slaying. However, the game of driving new high performance cars isn't cheap no matter the flavor you choose.

Yes. My GT3 is worth almost to the penny, what I paid for it new 7 years ago. It was on some top 10 least depreciating car lists. But that seems to be a bit of a fluke... Metzger engine, last of the non-electric steering, etc... Most of my other cars, expensive or not, including my Boxster, 911's, AMG, etc... still depreciated pretty quickly (less than many, but still quickly). I think this is an expensive game however you cut it and guess what, this ZL1 should eat all of them for lunch, performance wise.

[harmonyp]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

I think there will be varying opinion...some overshadowed by an emotional attachment for our own cars. But that doesn't mean the new stuff is bad.

I had a 2012 ZL1, and then popped into a 2014 1LE...I liked the interior and exterior styling better in the '14...plus I got Nav, and Recaro, etc...

Then the 6th gen came out - and I was astonished at how "next level" it felt to me. Side by side, I think the 5th gen looks bloated and clunky (we all know they're not)...and the 6th gen borrows heavily on Stingray styling cues for the hood, and some other bits...giving it this sharp, sculpted look. I love it.

Then I drove the thing a few different times, and it won me over 100x...so much more nimble, lighter, faster-feeling. And it seems like all the major complaints people had of the 5th gen...we either gone, or addressed in this new model.

I am glad they chose to go evolutionary with the styling, rather than revolutionary...I always admired cars that were able to keep their character and soul while being redesigns and upgraded over the years....I think of Corvette, Porsche, and Aston Martin off the top of my head.

We consumers are so obsessed with "different", and "new"...that manufacturers go to lengths to fake it. It drives me nuts sometimes. You know how many "new" cars are on 20 year old chassis using 15 year old engines?

So...what's wrong with just "better"? /rant

Mr Wyndham, I know you are a well respected poster on this forum, so certainly no disrespect intended. But I think a "rant" may be a bit more than called for. I never said anything about "bad", I just expressed my own opinion about evolutionary vs revolutionary, as I appreciate boldness from car makers. And I beg to differ, the corvette iterations over models bear no resemblance to Porsche's, a car which continues to look the same, decade after decade.

I'm not sure all the complaints were fixed in the Gen6. One of the biggest complaints was visibility, and I believe it is now even worse with the overly high binnacle. I have no idea why a lumbar option wouldn't have finally been included in the seats, and the lack of recline in the Gen6 seats is enough that it may be a complete deal breaker for me. The recaros in the ATS-V are some of the best anywhere, so it's not that GM doesn't know how to get ahold of good seats.

When I look for Gen6's on the road I struggle to discern them from Gen5's - now primarily looking for the absence of rear gills.

Personally, I really wanted to love the Gen6. I wanted to have one in my future, to look forward to in a few years when I wear out my Gen5. Maybe I'll change my mind, but at this point, my next car will likely not be a Camaro.

[mr965]

Originally Posted by MoreSpeed

Yes. My GT3 is worth almost to the penny, what I paid for it new 7 years ago. It was on some top 10 least depreciating car lists. But that seems to be a bit of a fluke... Metzger engine, last of the non-electric steering, etc... Most of my other cars, expensive or not, including my Boxster, 911's, AMG, etc... still depreciated pretty quickly (less than many, but still quickly). I think this is an expensive game however you cut it and guess what, this ZL1 should eat all of them for lunch, performance wise.

Well said! I am all about the performance and lap times with this ZL1.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by harmonyp

Mr Wyndham, I know you are a well respected poster on this forum, so certainly no disrespect intended. But I think a "rant" may be a bit more than called for.

I do apologize if that post read as though it was directed at you...I sort of just went....well, on a rant. No disrespect nor anger was intended towards you in ANY way.

After all...we are each entitled to our opinions.

Originally Posted by harmonyp

I'm not sure all the complaints were fixed in the Gen6. One of the biggest complaints was visibility, and I believe it is now even worse with the overly high binnacle. I have no idea why a lumbar option wouldn't have finally been included in the seats, and the lack of recline in the Gen6 seats is enough that it may be a complete deal breaker for me. The recaros in the ATS-V are some of the best anywhere, so it's not that GM doesn't know how to get ahold of good seats.

I didn't say it was perfect. For example - I absolutely HATE the placement of the window and lock buttons on the door...I have to imitate Steven Hawking just to reach them while sitting in it. And I agree - the shroud over the gauges is too high...makes for an obstructed view in certain situations. And of course, a trade-off of the smaller size and lower weight is less rear leg room.

But so much was addressed...I wish I could name them all, but frankly - my memory isn't quite that good. Off the top of my head, I remember noticing the following things on the first drive I was able to take: The interior appointments are far and away improved, gadgetry is top notch (including lighting and customization through MyLink), cup holders were offset to avoid hitting them with your elbow, clutch engagement is lighter and more progressive. I felt "hugged" more by the car than I did in Gen 5, although not so constricted as in the Corvette. The shifter is smooth, V6 car is astonishingly fast for what it is, and it sounds phenominal. The handling is brilliant no matter which version you get, and they made a big deal about the weight...being able to notice it in the "first 10 feet"...and they were right! It feels tighter, stiffer, stronger. And somehow, they made the style look even more fast and edgy (in my view).

The visibility thing is an outlier, however. They didn't address that one because they didn't WANT to. It is a huge factor in achieving the style we all know and love. They felt that it wasn't something they'd need to compromise on as they redesigned the car...so they didn't.

Can't speak to lumbar support.

Originally Posted by harmonyp

When I look for Gen6's on the road I struggle to discern them from Gen5's - now primarily looking for the absence of rear gills.

I can't say I understand that, unless it's an exaggeration. When I see one it sticks out like sore thumb. Sharper, smaller, more edges, and those headlights...but it's still very obviously a Camaro. And that's what I love.

But then, I can't very easily tell the difference between most BMWs, or between most Audis...their styling language is very similar between models, and I don't pay attention enough to notice the details.

So maybe it's a matter of exposure.

Back to the topic of the thread though - I believe the ZL1 takes all of the improvements they made from Gen 5 to Gen 6 and amplifies them. It's a masterpiece...and certainly won't be confused with any Camaro produced before.

[GoneBoy]

I'd be shocked to see many A10's sitting on dealers lots absent an absurd adm. If gm had also stuck with the A8 and there was no A10 hype, you'd probably see more people purchasing the M6. Clearly most people will want the latest and greatest, hence the 10 speed's demand.