[cwebster]

Originally Posted by laynlo15

I would run a Hoosier Slick with a Manual. You'll find it much easier to launch and breaks less parts. You just can drive them to the track which will be a problem for some. I chose to trailer mine since I've already learned a lesson with M6's and independent rear suspensions. It hurts your wallet, a lot.

Are you saying that the slicks put less stress on the axle and drive train? That would make sense since the sidewalls absorb and release some of the energy of the launch, right? I think I remember you talking about getting stranded at the track before. I certainly don't want to experience that.

Well, I have an 18V 1/2" impact wrench and an 11 gal air resevoir. As long as I have someone to drive my truck I could put the tires and tools in there and swap tires at the track. I'm ordering a 20' car hauler so it'll all fit in there once it arrives. I'm getting it mainly to travel to road courses but it could pull double-duty, especially if I have to go as far as Fayetteville to drag race.

--Cal

[cwebster]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

Were I to ever purchase the ZL1 I'd own two sets of tires, one for drag racing and one for road course type stuff. I've seen waaaay too many with their newer high performnce cars crunched into the K rails because they didn't have correct tires. It happens all too often and very quickly when it does. It ain't pretty either. If anyone thinks I'm being mean spirited or condescending you'd be incorrect. Stock type tires are a drag strip aren't your friend and you won't get any true idea of how quick your stock car is. Of course, if you are driving a 200 hp vehicle that likely doesn't apply.

I have been planning on buying another set of wheels for road tracks ever since I ordered my ZL1. This discussion has prompted me to think of other options, possibly just a pair of 18" rims with slicks or DRs. The stock wheels would serve double-duty for road track and street use. If I get heavy into road tracks I'll probably go ahead and get the extra set of rims with tires best suited for that purpose.

In any case I'm committed to learning what limits the car has, to the extent I can safely determine, with factory-everything; both at the drag strip and on the road tracks. I believe I will get a "true idea of how quick my stock car is" bone stock. When that occurs, I will then find out how much faster it can be with purpose-built tires and possibly other bolt-ons.

If you say you are not being "mean-spirited or condescending" I have to believe you. I've never met you in person so all I have to go on is what you say here in the forums. While you do come across as, well... strongly opinionated at times; you always seem to be trying to offer ideas or alternatives. I have no problem with that. In fact, I like it. It's a good way to flush out ideas - argument and counter-argument. Whichever has the most merit to each participant is the favored argument.

I do, on the other hand, have a problem with a statement like "If you want to go faster invest in a pair of DRs and stop playing with these street tires and blaming track prep and condition for poor times." All that does is prove to me that the person didn't have the courtesy to actually read my post and try to understand why I wrote it. To me that sounds more like someone who just likes to hear the sound of their own voice, so to speak; and their opinion is the only one that matters.

Anyway, keep the ideas and opinions coming. I'll keep posting my ideas, experiments, experiences, and questions.

--Cal

[762CAT]

Originally Posted by cwebster

I have been planning on buying another set of wheels for road tracks ever since I ordered my ZL1. This discussion has prompted me to think of other options, possibly just a pair of 18" rims with slicks or DRs. The stock wheels would serve double-duty for road track and street use. If I get heavy into road tracks I'll probably go ahead and get the extra set of rims with tires best suited for that purpose.

In any case I'm committed to learning what limits the car has, to the extent I can safely determine, with factory-everything; both at the drag strip and on the road tracks. I believe I will get a "true idea of how quick my stock car is" bone stock. When that occurs, I will then find out how much faster it can be with purpose-built tires and possibly other bolt-ons.

If you say you are not being "mean-spirited or condescending" I have to believe you. I've never met you in person so all I have to go on is what you say here in the forums. While you do come across as, well... strongly opinionated at times; you always seem to be trying to offer ideas or alternatives. I have no problem with that. In fact, I like it. It's a good way to flush out ideas - argument and counter-argument. Whichever has the most merit to each participant is the favored argument.

I do, on the other hand, have a problem with a statement like "If you want to go faster invest in a pair of DRs and stop playing with these street tires and blaming track prep and condition for poor times." All that does is prove to me that the person didn't have the courtesy to actually read my post and try to understand why I wrote it. To me that sounds more like someone who just likes to hear the sound of their own voice, so to speak; and their opinion is the only one that matters.

Anyway, keep the ideas and opinions coming. I'll keep posting my ideas, experiments, experiences, and questions.

--Cal

Well said my friend. Hi everyone...token Hellcat guy again. Lol...

To the guy who commented about track prep. With regards to the 60ft there is merit to your comment. However, having been to Coastal plains in similar conditions and seeing the slip and slide on the big end....that track is a serious issue. My car and others are all faster on the street and faster on the order of over a second at different tracks on test and tune days where prep is not necessarily stellar. I don't know why or how that place is so bad but I've experienced it personally.

The advice about Slicks on a Manual and Drag Radials on the Automatic seems to be sage advice. I've no personal experience on this one but many seasoned racers I've spoken to give the same advice.

Tires, tires tires.... Cal, I commend you for testing the limits of your car stock. My beloved Hellcat came with 275 ALL SEASON TIRES!!!! Yes that's right...freaking all seasons. I experimented with those and found what I reasonably determined to be their limit. Experimented with the factory Summer tire then moved to Drag radials and never looked back. FYI Drag radials were over a half second faster in all measures from 0-60 and 1/4 mile time on the street using the factory size 275s. Results were even more significant on the drag strip. Traction and tires have become my obsession and unfortunately many are not available for a car that "requires" a 106(Y) rating. You can deviate from that depending on your usage of course.

I now have 6 tires on OEM rims for road racing and mile racing events. This gives me two spares and a decent/semi-affordable tire to beat up around the track that still has the 186+ mph rating and load rating I need for 1 mile and 1 mile plus events. I have a set of aftermarket forged rims with wider rears and 305 Nitto 555Rs for street use and finally I just got 18x10s for the rear with Mickey Thompson 305/45R18s specifically for Drag Racing. Choose the right weapon for the right job if you want peak performance is the lesson and you have to pay to play unfortunately.

I'm not 100% the ZL1 will see quite as dramatic an increase as the Hellcat from Drag Radials/Slicks but it will be significant no doubt. The ZL1 is far less under tired from the factory and slightly lower power and lighter weight. The traction is the achilles heal of the Hellcat which is no secret off the show room floor. Easily rectified thankfully.

All that is to say, Cal... I would find the limit with your setup and then dive into other alternatives that offer max performance for your application. Might as well get some good use out of the tires it came with anyway.

BTW...officially jealous of your 20ft trailer....one day.

[396ssrat]

I recently purchased a set of Mickey Thompson pro drag radials to try out on my Chevelle. According to M/T they will outperform my slicks. That remains to be seen. I currently have a set of Hoosier 28x10.5x15 slicks. I've been sorting out my new build so my 60' is off by a bit. I've been slowly working on getting the launch figured out because in drag racing it's key to a desired E.T. My last outing, 3 weeks ago netted a 1.43 60' spinning and a 4.00 330' pass. The 1/8th mile was a 6.43@102 intentionally lifting very early (about 360' out) so as not to get booted for going too quick for the roll bar. I was legal to 6.40 period. Now the car is certified to 8.50 so I can lean on the thing a bit more. I have a couple more hoops to jump through first NHRA wise then I can see where I am.
So on the tires, the drag radials can/will dead hook on a prepped surface but once they spin they likely won't recover and hook. With the slicks you can spin and the tires are more apt to recover than their radial counterparts. I'm currently going to test both tires in an attempt to get in the very deep 1.30 60' times but it will take some adjustment launch rpm wise and shock setting wise. My car is old, I can't go to Chevy and buy new sheet metal nor do I want to source any. My thought for anyone on the track is safety first. As mentioned before I see too many drivers get in their cars, mash the gas and then smack the k rail needlessly. 98% of the time it's a newer Mustang on street tires but it happens to others as well. It makes me sick to see this happen to anybody period so I guess I do tend to "preach" about sticky tires on the drag strip. Even $60,000 ZL1's can smack the k rail enough to require a flat bed and if I can get that possibility across to even one person I've done them well. Road courses do require some talent but so does racing in a straight line with barriers on either side of the car, especially when the power levels get up over the 600hp levels. Gotta pay attention regardless who you are. No offense meant to anyone.

[762CAT]

^^^^^"So on the tires, the drag radials can/will dead hook on a prepped surface but once they spin they likely won't recover and hook. With the slicks you can spin and the tires are more apt to recover than their radial counterparts"

Thank you for that explanation. That makes a great deal of sense why an M6 may benefit from slicks vs. Drag Radials. Do you think Drag Radials initially tend to dead hook more or less? All I know is on the hellcat the MT Street R on an 18 inch rim is known to dead hook with pretty good regularity. Some guys run 17inch rims as well with great success but the 305/45R18 seems to be enough for stock power. Admittedly the "Stock" Hellcat record of 10.6 was done on Hoosier Slicks with an Automatic car but that dude can drive and has a great track.

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by cwebster

I have actually been considering buying a complete spare set of wheels for the road course tracks. If I'm going to be drag racing too, it might be an option to just get 2 18" rims with DRs and save the stock wheels for road and road courses. The front tires don't wear as fast as the rears except at road tracks, so it might be the way to go.

Is there likely to be clearance issues with the shorter rims? I think I remember reading about others having to "notch" suspension components on their cars. I definitely don't want to do that.

When I think I've gone as far as I can go on stock rubber I'll decide which way to go with the wheels. Thanks for suggesting another option.

--Cal

I know there would be a some point. Wish I had my car to take some measurements and do some test fits with what we have available at the moment, but I can only go on what I've read and what others have used right now. Unfortunately, I've not heard of anyone trying smaller wheels on the 6th gen ZL1 yet. Based on the rear rotor size and an approximate 1" plus for the caliper on top of that, an 18" wheel will most likely be the smallest we can go. I'm going to take a guess that we'll be able to go with a 325/35/18 if we get the back spacing and everything just right, but even if we have to go more narrow than that, DRs will still provide way more grip at the strip.

Originally Posted by cwebster

Don't go through too much trouble but I am interested to know which tires and rims would work best and what the trade-offs are with cheaper alternatives.

Thanks!

--Cal

I'll check with him tomorrow and see what all he's tried and how he'd rank them, with any pros and cons he can come up with.

[JeffFox]

CWebster I really enjoyed your post. I have never been to a dragstrip and found your post and many of the replies very informative. Thanks for posting.

Also wondering what you mean by dialed out "I thought I'd dialed most of that out. All I remember was a chirp off the launch after the first 3 or 4 runs. There might have been more during the sifts. I'll go back and review the videos anyway. I've got a lot to review and analyze before my next visit to the track.

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by 762CAT

^^^^^"So on the tires, the drag radials can/will dead hook on a prepped surface but once they spin they likely won't recover and hook. With the slicks you can spin and the tires are more apt to recover than their radial counterparts"

Thank you for that explanation. That makes a great deal of sense why an M6 may benefit from slicks vs. Drag Radials. Do you think Drag Radials initially tend to dead hook more or less? All I know is on the hellcat the MT Street R on an 18 inch rim is known to dead hook with pretty good regularity. Some guys run 17inch rims as well with great success but the 305/45R18 seems to be enough for stock power. Admittedly the "Stock" Hellcat record of 10.6 was done on Hoosier Slicks with an Automatic car but that dude can drive and has a great track.

The HC likely dead hooks more consistently due to it's weight. The ZL1 has excellent road track suspension as is apparent by the "Ring" times but is most likely compromised at the drag strip due to it's overall suspension which isn't really designed for drag strip use. A great comparison would be to check out the Copo Camaro which is set up solely for the drag strip... and it does that very very well.
Many sanctioning bodies have special classes for drag radial tired cars. That's a crazy fast class of cars.

[cwebster]

Originally Posted by 762CAT

Well said my friend. Hi everyone...token Hellcat guy again. Lol...

To the guy who commented about track prep. With regards to the 60ft there is merit to your comment. However, having been to Coastal plains in similar conditions and seeing the slip and slide on the big end....that track is a serious issue. My car and others are all faster on the street and faster on the order of over a second at different tracks on test and tune days where prep is not necessarily stellar. I don't know why or how that place is so bad but I've experienced it personally.

This weekend coming doesn't look good as far as temps go, even for a well prepared track. Forecast calls for 49F and sunny on Sat and 56 with AM showers on Sunday in Fayetteville, NC. The weekend of 11/12 Feb looks slightly better with 49F and mostly sunny on Sat and 59F ptly cloudy on Sun. I was thinking I should hold out for 60F or above.

Originally Posted by 762CAT

Tires, tires tires.... Cal, I commend you for testing the limits of your car stock. My beloved Hellcat came with 275 ALL SEASON TIRES!!!! Yes that's right...freaking all seasons. I experimented with those and found what I reasonably determined to be their limit. Experimented with the factory Summer tire then moved to Drag radials and never looked back. FYI Drag radials were over a half second faster in all measures from 0-60 and 1/4 mile time on the street using the factory size 275s. Results were even more significant on the drag strip. Traction and tires have become my obsession and unfortunately many are not available for a car that "requires" a 106(Y) rating. You can deviate from that depending on your usage of course.

For the drag strip I could probably get by with 99W (168 mph) or even a V rated (149 mph) tire since 1/4 mile speeds are unlikely to exceed that.

Originally Posted by 762CAT

I now have 6 tires on OEM rims for road racing and mile racing events. This gives me two spares and a decent/semi-affordable tire to beat up around the track that still has the 186+ mph rating and load rating I need for 1 mile and 1 mile plus events. I have a set of aftermarket forged rims with wider rears and 305 Nitto 555Rs for street use and finally I just got 18x10s for the rear with Mickey Thompson 305/45R18s specifically for Drag Racing. Choose the right weapon for the right job if you want peak performance is the lesson and you have to pay to play unfortunately.

Sounds like you've got a good strategy worked out. Yeah, I get it. That's why I'm asking the questions. So, for me I'm thinking I'll need a pair of 18x11 rims with racing slicks. I don't intend to drive on the street with them. I'll swap them on and off at the track. I suppose I could go with narrower (10") rims to accommodate the bulge in the cross-section of a slick. The size and compound options are confusing when I look online for rims and tires. My main concern is that I don't want to have clearance issues. There's not much room in the rear wheel wells and the struts are pretty close to the rims as it is. Going with too short of a rim might get too close to the coil flange or spring. That's why I'm thinking 18's are my best bet but all I'm seeing are Jr. Dragster tires.

Originally Posted by 762CAT

I'm not 100% the ZL1 will see quite as dramatic an increase as the Hellcat from Drag Radials/Slicks but it will be significant no doubt. The ZL1 is far less under tired from the factory and slightly lower power and lighter weight. The traction is the achilles heal of the Hellcat which is no secret off the show room floor. Easily rectified thankfully.

All that is to say, Cal... I would find the limit with your setup and then dive into other alternatives that offer max performance for your application. Might as well get some good use out of the tires it came with anyway.

BTW...officially jealous of your 20ft trailer....one day.

It's going to take some work to wring out bone-stock performance. Meantime, I'll be looking for a pair of rims & slicks that'll fit and offer max performace in the 1/4 mile.

Thanks!

--Cal

[DFW1LE]

What do you guys think about wheel hop and drive train shock with DR vs slicks? I have not used slicks since the 60s, and never used Drs, but I suspect slicks will have less shock on the drive train and be less prone to wheel hop.

I have used Hoosiers on prior road course cars and found them to be excellent. Back in the 60s when I was straight line racing, it was M&H wrinkle walls.

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by DFW1LE

What do you guys think about wheel hop and drive train shock with DR vs slicks? I have not used slicks since the 60s, and never used Drs, but I suspect slicks will have less shock on the drive train and be less prone to wheel hop.

I have used Hoosiers on prior road course cars and found them to be excellent. Back in the 60s when I was straight line racing, it was M&H wrinkle walls.

I would say you're likely correct, but I know the Mickey Thompson ET Streets (DR) wrinkles the sidewalls on launch as well, and I remember him saying from his research, they are supposed to hook as good or better than a slick. I'll talk to him after work and get more info, but I've watched the tires wrinkle myself during his runs.

[cwebster]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

I recently purchased a set of Mickey Thompson pro drag radials to try out on my Chevelle. According to M/T they will outperform my slicks. That remains to be seen. I currently have a set of Hoosier 28x10.5x15 slicks. I've been sorting out my new build so my 60' is off by a bit. I've been slowly working on getting the launch figured out because in drag racing it's key to a desired E.T. My last outing, 3 weeks ago netted a 1.43 60' spinning and a 4.00 330' pass. The 1/8th mile was a 6.43@102 intentionally lifting very early (about 360' out) so as not to get booted for going too quick for the roll bar. I was legal to 6.40 period. Now the car is certified to 8.50 so I can lean on the thing a bit more. I have a couple more hoops to jump through first NHRA wise then I can see where I am.
So on the tires, the drag radials can/will dead hook on a prepped surface but once they spin they likely won't recover and hook. With the slicks you can spin and the tires are more apt to recover than their radial counterparts. I'm currently going to test both tires in an attempt to get in the very deep 1.30 60' times but it will take some adjustment launch rpm wise and shock setting wise. My car is old, I can't go to Chevy and buy new sheet metal nor do I want to source any. My thought for anyone on the track is safety first. As mentioned before I see too many drivers get in their cars, mash the gas and then smack the k rail needlessly. 98% of the time it's a newer Mustang on street tires but it happens to others as well. It makes me sick to see this happen to anybody period so I guess I do tend to "preach" about sticky tires on the drag strip. Even $60,000 ZL1's can smack the k rail enough to require a flat bed and if I can get that possibility across to even one person I've done them well. Road courses do require some talent but so does racing in a straight line with barriers on either side of the car, especially when the power levels get up over the 600hp levels. Gotta pay attention regardless who you are. No offense meant to anyone.

Wow! That's a lot of food for thought. Thank you!

I'd love to see your Chevelle. Got any photos? Until I got my ZL1, the benchmark I used to compare to other cars was my '70 Nova SS 396 that I owned in 75/76. The buttery smooth Muncie 4-speed was so easy to shift and the dual-point Mallory ignition gave that big-block a deep throaty roar. Love that era in muscle cars. Good luck with your 1.30 60' goals. I can't imagine going that fast at this point but I'm sure it would set my hair on fire.

It sounds like slicks in general have more resiliance, grip, and are easier on the drive train. Do they make Hoosier 28x10.5 slicks for 17" or 18" rims? My rear rotors are 14.37" dia. so I doubt 15's would fit. What type rims should I look for? What do I need to measure to ensure clearance? Do rim suppliers display measurements between the mounting plate and inner/outer edge?

I don't understand why NHRA limits your speed with a roll-bar. Do they require a roll bar for competitive events on all cars? I have no intention right now of installing a roll bar but I'm not sure this car is capable of 6.43 1/8 mile either.

I understand your concern about getting squirly on stock tires and I appreciate the info and warnings. I'm out of the throttle right away if I detect any yaw or extended wheel slip. So far, the stability control system has kept me straight when I've left it activated. Nannies off is not a good idea on a slippery track with cross-winds, so after a couple of scary high-ET runs with lane changes I re-enabled SC.

--Cal

[cwebster]

Originally Posted by 17CamaroZL1

I know there would be a some point. Wish I had my car to take some measurements and do some test fits with what we have available at the moment, but I can only go on what I've read and what others have used right now. Unfortunately, I've not heard of anyone trying smaller wheels on the 6th gen ZL1 yet. Based on the rear rotor size and an approximate 1" plus for the caliper on top of that, an 18" wheel will most likely be the smallest we can go. I'm going to take a guess that we'll be able to go with a 325/35/18 if we get the back spacing and everything just right, but even if we have to go more narrow than that, DRs will still provide way more grip at the strip.

If we allow 1.5" for caliper with 14.37" rotors, that's almost 16" so 17" rims would clear the brakes. Backspace and offset gets more complicated, though. I'll have to put it up on a lift at the hobby shop on base to take some measurements to ensure 1) I know how much clearance I have from the face of the rotor to the nearest suspension components, and 2) the distance from the face of the rotor to the edge of the fender to avoid tire rubbing.

Now I'm thinking racing slicks are the way to go since it sounds like they have more grip and are more likely to re-hook if I loose traction. They're also supposed to stress the drive train less then DR's.

--Cal

[Can'tHave2MuchHP]

I'm really not so sure that slicks are gentler on your drivetrain...There's no way. The shock and wheel hop is not going to be as hard on your car as it is on your ET...

Slicks in general hook way way harder than a DR, you can probably dump it at 5500 RPM with a stock ZL1 and not spin, and I've seen it done with cars sub 700 WHP...Do you realize the stress that is on that rear end, driveline, and clutch, knowing that those tires aren't going to slip? The car is going to take the full punishment from 650/650 HP/TQ. At least with a drag radial you have a little less traction (normally), there is no way a DR will ever out hook a slick.

My vote would definitely be get a 18" Wheel and put a Mickey ET Street S/S on it, you'll hook as hard as you need. And my opinion is that there's no way a slick is easier on your drivetrain than a DR.