[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Thor142

It's really baffling to me why everyone is so down on fleet sales.A sale is a sale. It's a car that the company built and sold at profit. Is it as much profit? Who cares. American workers are working and building cars. You guys are really that concerned about corporate profits being higher? DO you own stock in GM or something? I couldn't care less how big bonuses are or how much wall street makes. Build cars and sell them and keep people working. As long as they aren't being sold at a loss its good.

Its not just about profits, its also about residual value. Rentals tend to be basic, no option cars that have relatively high mileage and minimal care. As a result, they have terrible resale value. Where this affects everyone else is when it comes time to sell your car. Its value is based on the typical resale value of the model, and having a massive number of rentals pulls the average down for everyone. Also, having a lower resale value makes leases more expensive & therefore less attractive, causing people who are looking for a 'fashion' car to go elsewhere.

As for being concerned about GMs profits ... its those profits that pay for R&D to keep the cars competitive, that pays to upgrade the production facilities so that they can compete with others around the world, thats pays for raises and benefits to the line workers (not just the execs), that restocks the warchest so that when the next economic downturn happens they don't need billions in bailout money.

Chasing sales (instead of profitability) is part of what lead to them going bankrupt in 2009

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Thor142

It's really baffling to me why everyone is so down on fleet sales.A sale is a sale. It's a car that the company built and sold at profit. Is it as much profit? Who cares. American workers are working and building cars. You guys are really that concerned about corporate profits being higher? DO you own stock in GM or something? I couldn't care less how big bonuses are or how much wall street makes. Build cars and sell them and keep people working. As long as they aren't being sold at a loss its good.

It's not that simple.

Each car line has to pay for itself...or better, generate profits for the company. If it does not do this...it gets cut. The cars sold to fleets, such as rental companies, are basic, low-margin cars sold at a lower "bulk" price...cutting into the afore-mentioned profits.

So....if you want Camaro to continue into the future, and get better, lighter, faster, more efficient, and advanced tech....then it needs to be a VERY healthy car line...which, means profits.

For me...My motivation and interest in the money vs. superficial volume...is the car. Simply put. Of course I want Al, Todd, and Cheryl, and Aaron, and Jim, and all the line workers, etc to be in good health and have a career....but I also want the Camaro line to be healthy...and that means paying for itself. Easiest way to do that = profits, and cashflow.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

A model breakdown is coming....rental vs retail, I'm not sure...

That would be a good thing for the discussion, at least....A breakdown of models with ZL1 and 1LE sales being added would make it interesting....

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 90503

That would be a good thing for the discussion, at least....A breakdown of models with ZL1 and 1LE sales being added would make it interesting....

I think all we'll get for now is 2016. And I don't know when...but I do know it's being worked on. Apparently a bit more difficult than we'd think.

[90503]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Its not just about profits, its also about residual value. Rentals tend to be basic, no option cars that have relatively high mileage and minimal care. As a result, they have terrible resale value. Where this affects everyone else is when it comes time to sell your car. Its value is based on the typical resale value of the model, and having a massive number of rentals pulls the average down for everyone. Also, having a lower resale value makes leases more expensive & therefore less attractive, causing people who are looking for a 'fashion' car to go elsewhere.

As for being concerned about GMs profits ... its those profits that pay for R&D to keep the cars competitive, that pays to upgrade the production facilities so that they can compete with others around the world, thats pays for raises and benefits to the line workers (not just the execs), that restocks the warchest so that when the next economic downturn happens they don't need billions in bailout money.

Chasing sales (instead of profitability) is part of what lead to them going bankrupt in 2009

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

It's not that simple.

Each car line has to pay for itself...or better, generate profits for the company. If it does not do this...it gets cut. The cars sold to fleets, such as rental companies, are basic, low-margin cars sold at a lower "bulk" price...cutting into the afore-mentioned profits.

So....if you want Camaro to continue into the future, and get better, lighter, faster, more efficient, and advanced tech....then it needs to be a VERY healthy car line...which, means profits.

For me...My motivation and interest in the money vs. superficial volume...is the car. Simply put. Of course I want Al, Todd, and Cheryl, and Aaron, and Jim, and all the line workers, etc to be in good health and have a career....but I also want the Camaro line to be healthy...and that means paying for itself. Easiest way to do that = profits, and cashflow.

All good points, but I recall the sales discussions on the 5thGen as Camaro needed to sell the most over the competition in order to have the resources to continue on, be improved, etc....Being the "most popular", "number one seller" was the formula for future success and sustainability, even most profit...When the 5thGen sales fell out of first place, it was not good news at all for the future of the Camaro...

...Now suddenly with the 6thGen, sales numbers seem to be not so important. Maybe they still make a good profit, but certainly they would love to sell more than the competition....and claim the title of "Best Seller"...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 90503

...Now suddenly with the 6thGen, sales numbers seem to be not so important. Maybe they still make a good profit, but certainly they would love to sell more than the competition....and claim the title of "Best Seller"...

Yes. And if you noticed...they started putting money on the hoods. However...it cannot be overlooked that Ford is pouring cars into fleet sales (30% or more), and Chevy is deliberately choosing not to. That makes a big difference in the equation. The company as a whole has stated in no uncertain terms that they are adjusting their sales philosophy.

I believe the biggest reason Camaro has sold more cars than Mustang these past two months is because Ford front-loaded their fleet sales, and they haven't sold many in these past couple months. Just a theory...

[JAZ]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Yes. And if you noticed...they started putting money on the hoods. However...it cannot be overlooked that Ford is pouring cars into fleet sales (30% or more), and Chevy is deliberately choosing not to. That makes a big difference in the equation. The company as a whole has stated in no uncertain terms that they are adjusting their sales philosophy.

I believe the biggest reason Camaro has sold more cars than Mustang these past two months is because Ford front-loaded their fleet sales, and they haven't sold many in these past couple months. Just a theory...

Do you have a data source for fleet sales for Mustangs, or is the 30% just a theory also?

My theory is that Ford has reduced it's distribution in the US & Canada and advised the dealerships about expectations for the 2018 refresh.

Instead of dropping prices to reduce inventory, they slowed production,and are shipping more cars overseas. There was a huge jump in sales in Europe in September. Probably also true in Auz and China. Total Mustangs sold in September worldwide was way above total Camaros. Likely also true for October.

The 2018 refresh is expected to significantly close any gap between the GTPP and the SS and also the gap between the GTPP and the GT350 both in terms of appearance and performance.

[Bluecyclone]

In Texas oil & gas can be a factor as to sales, if oil is $50.00 a barrel or higher Texan's can afford to buy pony cars and mod them to custom designs. The country as a whole needs the economy to improve so our "Lifestyle" can be enjoyed. My business depends on the economy.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Yes. And if you noticed...they started putting money on the hoods. However...it cannot be overlooked that Ford is pouring cars into fleet sales (30% or more), and Chevy is deliberately choosing not to. That makes a big difference in the equation. The company as a whole has stated in no uncertain terms that they are adjusting their sales philosophy.

I believe the biggest reason Camaro has sold more cars than Mustang these past two months is because Ford front-loaded their fleet sales, and they haven't sold many in these past couple months. Just a theory...

This supports your theory.

In October 2016... Chevrolet was once again the top-selling automobile brand in the United States.

Despite a modest sales slowdown, General Motors’ highest-volume brand increased its market share, outsold Ford Motor Company’s namesake Ford brand by 3,341 units, and produced the Bow-tie brand’s best October retail volume since 2004.

Ford, on the other hand, tumbled 13 percent, a loss of 26,000 sales compared with October 2015, due to sharp declines in its car and utility vehicle divisions.

In October 2016, however, Chevrolet increased its retail sales by 6 percent and reported a 7-percent overall increase in light truck volume... total Chevrolet volume dipped just 1 percent in a market that fell 6 percent.

Meanwhile, at Ford... the automaker blamed a sharp drop in fleet sales for much of the company’s October decline. Total Ford Motor Company fleet volume fell 24 percent after the company “front-loaded” fleet volume to daily rental companies earlier in the year...

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...in-five-years/

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Its not just about profits, its also about residual value. Rentals tend to be basic, no option cars that have relatively high mileage and minimal care. As a result, they have terrible resale value. Where this affects everyone else is when it comes time to sell your car. Its value is based on the typical resale value of the model, and having a massive number of rentals pulls the average down for everyone. Also, having a lower resale value makes leases more expensive & therefore less attractive, causing people who are looking for a 'fashion' car to go elsewhere.

As for being concerned about GMs profits ... its those profits that pay for R&D to keep the cars competitive, that pays to upgrade the production facilities so that they can compete with others around the world, thats pays for raises and benefits to the line workers (not just the execs), that restocks the warchest so that when the next economic downturn happens they don't need billions in bailout money.

Chasing sales (instead of profitability) is part of what lead to them going bankrupt in 2009

Chasing sales does not in and of itself lead to being less profitable. What led to not being profitable was having huge amounts of capital to keep Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saturn and Hummer with even mildly differentiated products and having no more sales to pay for that.

The end game to chasing profit vs volume is simply to say I sold 1 car for $5 Billion. There I'm hugely profitable.

Also, keep in mind, GM cares about residuals only to the point where it hurts sales not where it hurts customers. The Captivas reason to exist was to protect the Equinox residuals. Better residuals leads to better lease deals. if GM cared about OUR residuals, they would do 20% off sales destroying the value and trade in of anyone that just purchased.

Originally Posted by 90503

All good points, but I recall the sales discussions on the 5thGen as Camaro needed to sell the most over the competition in order to have the resources to continue on, be improved, etc....Being the "most popular", "number one seller" was the formula for future success and sustainability, even most profit...When the 5thGen sales fell out of first place, it was not good news at all for the future of the Camaro...

...Now suddenly with the 6thGen, sales numbers seem to be not so important. Maybe they still make a good profit, but certainly they would love to sell more than the competition....and claim the title of "Best Seller"...

Being the best seller doesn't mean it's the most profitable. GM is also building ATS/CTS in the same plant, and although those sales REALLY suck, they help pay the fixed costs of not just the plant (heat, light, taxes etc.) but also the development costs for the Alpha architecture. Don't doubt for a minute that the CTS-V didn't help develop the ZL1, even if the parts are different.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Yes. And if you noticed...they started putting money on the hoods. However...it cannot be overlooked that Ford is pouring cars into fleet sales (30% or more), and Chevy is deliberately choosing not to. That makes a big difference in the equation. The company as a whole has stated in no uncertain terms that they are adjusting their sales philosophy.

I believe the biggest reason Camaro has sold more cars than Mustang these past two months is because Ford front-loaded their fleet sales, and they haven't sold many in these past couple months. Just a theory...

Originally Posted by hotlap

This supports your theory.

Not sure they put 30,000 Mustangs into fleets. That would be a big number for a small coupe in a Hertz lot. Most would be Fusion or Focus would be my guess.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by 90503

All good points, but I recall the sales discussions on the 5thGen as Camaro needed to sell the most over the competition in order to have the resources to continue on, be improved, etc....Being the "most popular", "number one seller" was the formula for future success and sustainability, even most profit...When the 5thGen sales fell out of first place, it was not good news at all for the future of the Camaro...

...Now suddenly with the 6thGen, sales numbers seem to be not so important. Maybe they still make a good profit, but certainly they would love to sell more than the competition....and claim the title of "Best Seller"...

Camaro now shares a facility, development costs and components with Cadillac ATS/CTS so it's volume and profits are important to GM's objective for those cars also. I doubt GM is thrilled with the success of any but they are all linked and their survival depends on the overall market volume and profitability in those segments. If the potential is high, GM isn't going to abandon them to the competition if they don't get their share. They'll adjust and go at it again

That's why I think it's a false argument to point at the 2002 Camaro sales drop and demise as an indicator for the future. The F-body stood alone and that GM was in trouble, milked it, then canned the car. Today's survival depends on the potential volume and profitability of three segments and GM not foolishly hanging all their planning on trucks, SUVs and CUVs because oil is cheap today.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by JAZ

Do you have a data source for fleet sales for Mustangs, or is the 30% just a theory also?

I do. But of course, I can't find them.

It is widely known that Ford has been dumping a TON of cars into fleet...during certain months out of the year, as much as 37%. Reading between the lines, and seeing the article posted above...I guess it's not that much of a theory, after all!

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Not sure they put 30,000 Mustangs into fleets. That would be a big number for a small coupe in a Hertz lot. Most would be Fusion or Focus would be my guess.

If not, it's a pretty big coincidence that the Mustang's volume plummeted at the same time the fleets sales declined.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by hotlap

That's why I think it's a false argument to point at the 2002 Camaro sales drop and demise as an indicator for the future. The F-body stood alone and that GM was in trouble, milked it, then canned the car. Today's survival depends on the potential volume and profitability of three segments and GM not foolishly hanging all their planning on trucks, SUVs and CUVs because oil is cheap today.

The 4th gen also suffered from labor issues, plant underutilization, a supporting company that was hemorrhaging company, and federal safety regs that would have required massive changes to the f-body chassis...it wasn't only sales that put the 4th gen Camaro on hiatus...call it "a perfect storm"...