[Daves1SS]

Originally Posted by sub_ETCS_ret

Appreciate it.

One more question. "the Mustang effect" that I mentioned earlier where it appears that the power kicks in and they lose control. When daily driving and you want to pull out fast, does that "boost" (torque) kick in like has been suggested in earlier posts. Where it goes from daily driver to some boost monster. This goes to looking at the torque curves on dyno sheets. For PDs it seems to hold steady but centris seem to jump up quickly and then increase steadily.

The reason for this question is I hate waiting for a line of traffic with like 25 freakin' people and will sneak into a gap. My concern is will I lose that ability or should I say, lose my traction.

I actually just experienced this coming back from getting subway. I was turning right at a light and waiting on traffic to clear. It cleared but there's a blind curve not giving you much notice of more cars coming. I started going and saw an 18 wheeler come around the curve. I gave it probably 30% throttle and it started spinning and going sideways a little. I let off a little and the car got right back in line. I've noticed I can get the car to correct itself very quickly by just backing off the throttle a little. That's one thing I like about this car......that you can let it get squirly but can easily regain control with a little throttle correction.

[sub_ETCS_ret]

Originally Posted by Daves1SS

I actually just experienced this coming back from getting subway. I was turning right at a light and waiting on traffic to clear. It cleared but there's a blind curve not giving you much notice of more cars coming. I started going and saw an 18 wheeler come around the curve. I gave it probably 30% throttle and it started spinning and going sideways a little. I let off a little and the car got right back in line. I've noticed I can get the car to correct itself very quickly by just backing off the throttle a little. That's one thing I like about this car......that you can let it get squirly but can easily regain control with a little throttle correction.

That's good info. Thanks!

[sub_ETCS_ret]

I know this is a few years old but this was exactly what I was talking about with the torque. It doesn't appear like the torque comes piling on with a ProCharger. Really it looks like the Magnuson pours on the torque while the ProCharger builds gradually. Based on my previous statements it looks like the ProCharger is more manageable since it builds torque over time.

https://magnacharger.wordpress.com/2...finitive-test/

[Atomic Ed]

Sorry, your still backwards on your thinking. The rate of change of the torque with any F/I makes them less predicable, not more. In my Audi TT, with a large turbo, I have to anticipate where the torque is going to be after I apply the throttle. Going into a corner requires some pre-throttle application to hit the torque curve point I need to pull through the corner with the acceleration I'm wanting. With a PD, the torque is linear, so it is much easier to pull through a corner, or modulate your acceleration. Think of a PD as just a much bigger size engine. A non-PD "spools" up and down in a non-linear fashion. We humans like to respond to linear feedback better than non-linear.

Non-PDs can be managed to reduce this effect with a variety of techniques, but the bigger the flow the harder it gets to get them to behave in a somewhat liner fashion. My TT has no less than 4 control valves to make it simulate a N/A engine. (It actually has a control valve to control another control valve on the wastegate....sheez.)

There is a lot to be said for the rush of power as the tach needle climbs, and I still love that on my TT and plan to keep it for that very reason. But daily driving a PD with the low end grunt allows me to "play" with the power a lot more often.

It's still a personal choice on how you want to be pushed back into your seat.

Edit: Also note that the hp AND the torque are increasing with the RPM on that graph for the Procharger. Hence the "rush" of power as RPM climbs. Remember that torque is the power and hp is the power over time.

[sub_ETCS_ret]

Originally Posted by Atomic Ed

Sorry, your still backwards on your thinking. The rate of change of the torque with any F/I makes them less predicable, not more. In my Audi TT, with a large turbo, I have to anticipate where the torque is going to be after I apply the throttle. Going into a corner requires some pre-throttle application to hit the torque curve I need to pull through the corner with the acceleration I'm wanting. With a PD, the torque is linear, so it is much easier to pull through a corner, or modulate your acceleration. Think of a PD as just a much bigger size engine. A non-PD "spools" up and down in a non-linear fashion. We humans like to respond to linear feedback better than non-linear.

Non-PDs can be managed to reduce this effect with a variety of techniques, but the bigger the flow the harder it gets to get them to behave in a somewhat liner fashion. My TT has no less than 4 control valves to make it simulate a N/A engine. (It actually has a control valve to control another control valve on the wastegate....sheez.)

There is a lot to be said for the rush of power as the tach needle climbs, and I still love that on my TT and plan to keep it for that very reason. But daily driving a PD allows me to "play" with the power a lot more often.

It's still a personal choice on how you want to be pushed back into your seat.

Good explanation. Thank you!

If you look at the dyno sheet from that article, it doesn't appear to me that the curve is that unpredictable. It's really not that far off from the magnuson, as far as curve goes.

Here's another article (dyno at the end): http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...016-camaro-ss/

[sub_ETCS_ret]

I'm hoping that nobody is getting tired of my questions. This is truly helping me understand. I appreciate everyone's input positive and negative. It all counts.

[Ecchi667]

Originally Posted by sub_ETCS_ret

Appreciate it.

One more question. "the Mustang effect" that I mentioned earlier where it appears that the power kicks in and they lose control. When daily driving and you want to pull out fast, does that "boost" (torque) kick in like has been suggested in earlier posts. Where it goes from daily driver to some boost monster. This goes to looking at the torque curves on dyno sheets. For PDs it seems to hold steady but centris seem to jump up quickly and then increase steadily.

The reason for this question is I hate waiting for a line of traffic with like 25 freakin' people and will sneak into a gap. My concern is will I lose that ability or should I say, lose my traction.

I wouldn't be worrying too much about "the Mustang effect". That's largely caused by all (except a very select few) pre 2015 model mustangs having a solid rear axle. The 2015 + models don't crash as much, as they finally did away with this idea. Camaros have an independent rear (I don't know my muscle car history well enough to say since when), and you shouldn't have any trouble controlling a loss of traction from a low speed. I also expect it has some to do with inexperienced drivers trying to drive beyond their skill level. With the solid rear axle, a deadly combination.

Now, losing the rear end on the highway could be a different matter. If you've ever fish-tailed a car, you'll know it's scary as hell, and the faster you're going the more scary it gets. But, at highway speeds, if you were to dump a gear to get the boost with the centrifugal system, you're going to have the exact same issue anyway, so it won't make any difference which setup you have there. And, as long as you're not in the low gears, and the road is dry, I'd assume you can still put the power down without any trouble.

Personally, I intend to go with Whipple when I finally go forced induction. I've only had turbos before, so superchargers are totally new to me, but I'm after the NA instant power feel rather than the build in boost. Don't get me wrong, that build in boost feels amazing, and my old s13 used to feel like it was floating when boost was on and with the sound of the turbines going - it turned into a hovercraft! But, I don't want that on a big V8, I want it to just feel like a huge engine with power on tap, controllable as I need it.

Now, I do run a Vitesse, and I'd have to ask - why, if you're not bothered about power, do you want to go for forced induction at this stage anyway? What do you feel you're missing? You may find a throttle controller gives you that extra kick you are perhaps missing, and that's a cheap option to try. It's also something you can turn on and off. I love mine. I suspect it'd need dialing down when I have more power, but at this stage it feels like the torque has been ramped up to 11. Am I already bored with it? Of course, which is why I want more already. But, I have the tuner bug, and it'll never go away.

Lastly, have you looked at turbos? That's another option for you, and gives you a lot more to play with if you do decide you want big power and ludicrous speed somewhere down the road.

[sub_ETCS_ret]

Originally Posted by Ecchi667

I wouldn't be worrying too much about "the Mustang effect". That's largely caused by all (except a very select few) pre 2015 model mustangs having a solid rear axle. The 2015 + models don't crash as much, as they finally did away with this idea. Camaros have an independent rear (I don't know my muscle car history well enough to say since when), and you shouldn't have any trouble controlling a loss of traction from a low speed. I also expect it has some to do with inexperienced drivers trying to drive beyond their skill level. With the solid rear axle, a deadly combination.

Now, losing the rear end on the highway could be a different matter. If you've ever fish-tailed a car, you'll know it's scary as hell, and the faster you're going the more scary it gets. But, at highway speeds, if you were to dump a gear to get the boost with the centrifugal system, you're going to have the exact same issue anyway, so it won't make any difference which setup you have there. And, as long as you're not in the low gears, and the road is dry, I'd assume you can still put the power down without any trouble.

Personally, I intend to go with Whipple when I finally go forced induction. I've only had turbos before, so superchargers are totally new to me, but I'm after the NA instant power feel rather than the build in boost. Don't get me wrong, that build in boost feels amazing, and my old s13 used to feel like it was floating when boost was on and with the sound of the turbines going - it turned into a hovercraft! But, I don't want that on a big V8, I want it to just feel like a huge engine with power on tap, controllable as I need it.

Now, I do run a Vitesse, and I'd have to ask - why, if you're not bothered about power, do you want to go for forced induction at this stage anyway? What do you feel you're missing? You may find a throttle controller gives you that extra kick you are perhaps missing, and that's a cheap option to try. It's also something you can turn on and off. I love mine. I suspect it'd need dialing down when I have more power, but at this stage it feels like the torque has been ramped up to 11. Am I already bored with it? Of course, which is why I want more already. But, I have the tuner bug, and it'll never go away.

Lastly, have you looked at turbos? That's another option for you, and gives you a lot more to play with if you do decide you want big power and ludicrous speed somewhere down the road.

To answer the why for power - I want more power but I want it to be "friendly". To be honest the more I learn the more I believe it's personal preference, plain and simple. I'm just trying to gather the nuggets of what people like, don't like, why's and why nots, and people unbridled opinions.

As for turbo, maybe but not seeing anything yet.

[DisturbedSS]

Long winded response.....

So Ive had the maggie for 500 miles now...and like you I rarely ever track and driving habits almost similar to yours. I mentioned in another post, that I was talked out of the procharger by almost every shop here in AZ - mostly because its more maintenance, has more issues and wasnt the best application for my habits. Being that these shops install and work on all brands everyday, what they suggest holds a lot of weight. You'll also notice most of the guys here telling you they like procharger better are track runners - something you said you didnt really do. The shops I talked to almost unanimously picked procharger as the best option for high HP applications (700+) - also better for a car with swapped internals.

If you want a smoother torque curve, consider adding LT Headers and HF cats (I chose kooks) with a PD install and a required re-tune of the stock maggie or whipple provided with the kit. Yes, all of that is very expensive but can be added in stages. Always cheaper to get it all done at once however...gives you more negotiating power. Thats why Im getting CAI, LT and tune all at the same time.

I cant speak about procharger and Whipple performance, not ever owning either...but if you want a lot of low down power a maggie is the way to go. Magnuson is the preferred OEM blower so right there was my deciding factor, along with the 10 shop owners I talked to. Add LT headers later as mentioned later and you have the full package.

Tracking is a blast, but that really is a fantasy world. Thats how vendors get you excited. Ever wonder why every performance car commercial shows its car drifting around corners on a deserted city street?...total fantasy world.

Procharger will save you money upfront, but cost more money long-term. Again all this is based on shops advice and not my personal preference. My original choice was procharger from day 1!

Another thought....
Lets be honest here - none of this makes 1 iota of financial sense - you already have a fast car. Save the bucks and just get a really good tune and axle back exhaust. You'll still be faster than 95% of the cars on the road and around 10k richer by not going mod crazy. You will NEVER get this money back if you decide to trade in or sell outright later - and trust me, no dealer wants a heavily modded car. They will try and shop it elsewhere for reduced trade in value and most likely it will be sold at auction. Personal experience with 2 heavy modded cars traded in.

I obviously cant stop wasting money LOL

[sub_ETCS_ret]

Originally Posted by DisturbedSS

So Ive had the maggie for 500 miles now...and like you I rarely ever track and driving habits almost similar to yours. I mentioned in another post, that I was talked out of the procharger by almost every shop here in AZ - mostly because its more maintenance, has more issues and wasnt the best application for my habits. Being that these shops install and work on all brands everyday, what they suggest holds a lot of weight. You'll also notice most of the guys here telling you they like procharger better are track runners - something you said you didnt really do. The shops I talked to almost unanimously picked procharger as the best option for tracking - better for a car with swapped internals.

If you want a smoother torque curve, consider adding LT Headers and HF cats (I chose kooks) with a PD install with a required re-tune of the stock maggie or whipple provided with the kit. Yes, all of that is very expensive but can be added in stages.

I cant speak about procharger and Whipple, not ever owning either...but if you want a lot of low down power a PD blower is the way to go. Magnuson is the preferred OEM blower so right there was my deciding factor, along with the 10 shop owners I talked to. Add LT headers later as mentioned later and you have the full package.

Tracking is a blast, but that really is a fantasy world. Spending extra thousands on internal parts for the sake of faster timeslips 2-4 mins a month ,on a DD, really doesnt make sense IMO. But that how vendors get you excited. Ever wonder why every performance car commercial shows its car drifting around corners on a deserted city street?...fantasy world.

Procharger will save you money upfront, but cost more money long-term. Again all this is based on shops advice and not my personal preference. My original choice was procharger for day 1!

Another thought....
Lets be honest here - none of this makes 1 iota of financial sense - you already have a fast car. Save the bucks and just get a really good tune and axle back exhaust. You'll still be faster than 95% of the cars on the road and around 10k richer by the time youre all done modding. I obviously cant stop wasting money LOL

Thanks man! I might try to get with shrubby and give his a go. It just really seems like the people with Prochargers are tracking their cars and those with a Maggie or E-force are street drivers.

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[GirlyNFG]

Maint on a procharger is pretty basic. every time I change my engine oil, I drain and fill the blower. it takes less time to do the oil change in the blower than to drain oil from the engine.

[sub_ETCS_ret]

Originally Posted by GirlyNFG

Maint on a procharger is pretty basic. every time I change my engine oil, I drain and fill the blower. it takes less time to do the oil change in the blower than to drain oil from the engine.

I would only worry about maintenance if it required a complete breakdown of the system. I know on the older grand prixs you could use a turkey baster to get the oil out.

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[SGDM]

Well brother...your stock car will spin the tires and get sideways! This is a great thread and good discussion, keep the questions coming, no such thing as a stupid question. I have an A8 and love this new transmission and really have not had much time to get it out, only 1500 miles and it is a blast so far. I have no issues with controllability and like i said driveability was a big factor, most of it is controlled by the right foot and knowing yer car and it's all about the tune. My TT car was a beast but did not "hit" on the low side but man after an 1/8th it would scream. We also have a 2.5 mile road course here and have been a couple times, if you want to know the capabilities of your car and your skill, get on one of these tracks, it's a blast. I come from a drag racing family and that is what I like to do when I get a chance, we have several tracks in the area.

[sub_ETCS_ret]

Originally Posted by SGDM

Well brother...your stock car will spin the tires and get sideways! This is a great thread and good discussion, keep the questions coming, no such thing as a stupid question. I have an A8 and love this new transmission and really have not had much time to get it out, only 1500 miles and it is a blast so far. I have no issues with controllability and like i said driveability was a big factor, most of it is controlled by the right foot and knowing yer car and it's all about the tune. My TT car was a beast but did not "hit" on the low side but man after an 1/8th it would scream. We also have a 2.5 mile road course here and have been a couple times, if you want to know the capabilities of your car and your skill, get on one of these tracks, it's a blast. I come from a drag racing family and that is what I like to do when I get a chance, we have several tracks in the area.

Thanks man! I think if I just respect the car and the power I'll be fine. It's like I said way up above, it's like learning to drive a new car. You have to figure out how much pedal and how much brake. Sometimes you can figure it out quickly and sometimes it takes a few days.

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