Article on PD heat soak

Atomic Ed · 09-10-2016, 02:06 PM

Interesting article on Vengeance Racing's research on the LT4 heat soak/IATs and GM's conservative tuning. Vengeance was able to go from 585 to 660 rwhp with just a CAI, smaller pulley, and a less conservative ECM remap. GM's response in the article would probably be echoed by Edelbrock and Magnuson if you were able to get them to discuss their canned tunes in the open.

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/20...tup-89790.html

Just food for thought.

Daves1SS · 09-10-2016, 02:40 PM

Good read, Ed. Thanks for sharing. It's certainly in Edelbrock's best interest (speaking of our certain situations) to keep the tune as conservative as possible to minimize their chances of forking out $$ to fix someone's car. I don't blame them one bit. Once I get to 36k miles, I will most certainly be getting a CAI, smaller pulley (probably) and definitely a different and at least somewhat more aggressive tune. Until then, I'll enjoy what I've got with the comfort of knowing I have the powertrain warranty.

E-Ray · 09-10-2016, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daves1SS

Good read, Ed. Thanks for sharing. It's certainly in Edelbrock's best interest (speaking of our certain situations) to keep the tune as conservative as possible to minimize their chances of forking out $$ to fix someone's car. I don't blame them one bit. Once I get to 36k miles, I will most certainly be getting a CAI, smaller pulley (probably) and definitely a different and at least somewhat more aggressive tune. Until then, I'll enjoy what I've got with the comfort of knowing I have the powertrain warranty.

+1

Snowblind · 09-10-2016, 10:03 PM

The article is okay but it's not really an apples to apples comparison for you guys. The C7 has a smaller frontal area than the Camaro and has a harder time taking in fresh air. Their is no PD that can escape heat soak, it happens to all of them, so a larger intercooler is never a bad idea.

As for the canned tune, it is understandable that the manufacturers of any product have to account for a number of factors when designing their own mail order tune....a FI ride in Alaska at sea level will behave differently than at elevation in Arizona, all bases have to be covered somewhat conservatively to save their ass.

It's easy for me to sit here and say what I think you should do, it's not my money or pride and joy that is at risk. What I am saying is that their are enough guys out there that have sprayed or boosted (at 6-7 lbs) and we haven't heard of 1 catastrophic failure yet. The LT1 seems like it can handle it so I would recommend a custom tune (for YOUR car where YOU live) to get all that you can out of your Beast.

Edit; I meant to say heat exchanger and not intercooler in paragraph one, sorry.

LesBaer · 09-12-2016, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daves1SS

Good read, Ed. Thanks for sharing. It's certainly in Edelbrock's best interest (speaking of our certain situations) to keep the tune as conservative as possible to minimize their chances of forking out $$ to fix someone's car. I don't blame them one bit. Once I get to 36k miles, I will most certainly be getting a CAI, smaller pulley (probably) and definitely a different and at least somewhat more aggressive tune. Until then, I'll enjoy what I've got with the comfort of knowing I have the powertrain warranty.

Have you guys even read these warranties? I downloaded the Edelbrock agreement and while it's better than the Magnuson warranty at face value, they both are structured with so many outs for the company administering it...and both have 3rd parties administering them. They definitely don't make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside...

This is from Edlebrock's warranty:

THIS WARRANTY COVERS ANY DEFECTS IN OUR MATERIALS OR WORKMANSHIP AS WELL AS ANY FACTORY EQUIPMENT NOT COVERED
BY THE FACTORY WARRANTY IF DEEMED THE DAMAGE WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE INSTALLED E-FORCE SUPERCHARGER; ALL OF
WHICH IS VOID, IF THE DAMAGE IS RELATED TO OR ARISING FROM THE:
USE OF FUEL WITH OCTANE RATING LESS THAN 91 (R+M)/2, OR 93 IF SPECIFIED.

IMPROPER INSTALLATION, ABNORMAL OPERATION, ABUSE, NEGLECT, LACK OF MAINTENANCE OR LACK OF FLUIDS, OR DAMAGE
RESULTING FROM A COLLISION. OPERATION OF SUCH AN IMPAIRED VEHICLE WILL VOID THIS WARRANTY. THE VEHICLE OWNER IS
RESPONSIBLE FOR ENSURING NO FURTHER DAMAGE OCCURS ONCE A PROBLEM HAS OCCURRED.

COVERED COMPONENTS BEING TAMPERED WITH OR ALTERED FROM FACTORY SPECIFICATIONS (OEM OR EDELBROCK) INCLUDING,
BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE REMOVAL OF THE SUPERCHARGER DRIVE PULLEY, FOR ANY REASON, AS EVIDENCED BY THE TAMPER
PROOF LABEL.

FAILURE TO PERFORM NORMAL MAINTENANCE AND/OR SERVICE RECOMMENDED OR REQUIRED BY THE MANUFACTURER’S
MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE FOR YOUR VEHICLE, OR EDELBROCK, LLC AS APPLICABLE AS WELL AS ANY DAMAGE CAUSED BY ANY
GRADUAL REDUCTION IN OPERATING PERFORMANCE (WEAR & TEAR).
ABUSE RELATED TO OVERLOADING, PCM RECALIBRATION, MISUSE, NEGLIGENCE, ROAD CONDITIONS, UNAPPROVED TIRE SIZE
AND/OR TIRE COMPOUND, AND OTHER NON-EDELBROCK APPROVED MODIFICATIONS.

EDELBROCK APPROVED MODIFICATIONS
ARE LIMITED TO THE FOLLOWING: EXHAUST MODIFICATIONS BEYOND THE CATALYTIC CONVERTER (REFERRED TO AS CAT-BACK
OR POST CAT); WHEEL AND TIRE MODIFICATIONS THAT ARE WITHIN FIFTEEN PERCENT (15%) OF OEM OR FACTORY EQUIPPED SIZE
(MODIFIED TIRES ARE ONLY ALLOWABLE IF THEY ARE ONE HUNDRED PERCENT (100%) STREET COMPOUND).

Tier One Warranty, LLC is one of the companies that actually administers the warranty, so you have to deal with them on your claims. All of these places are a nightmare to deal with. They can also sell your warranty contract (like selling a mortgage) to another company, like a US Fidelis for example. Read some of the comments from people in this complaint that have a Tier One warranty...even GM is starting to do some of this stuff to people who buy CPO's: http://www.complaintsboard.com/compl...s-c190513.html

Daves1SS · 09-12-2016, 05:34 PM

I did read through it, and agree it does give them tons of outs. I guess I feel better about at least having a chance of having a failure covered then no chance at all.

cellsafemode · 09-12-2016, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowblind

The article is okay but it's not really an apples to apples comparison for you guys. The C7 has a smaller frontal area than the Camaro and has a harder time taking in fresh air. Their is no PD that can escape heat soak, it happens to all of them, so a larger intercooler is never a bad idea.

Except it will cause more turbo lag. Cadillac takes a different route

"Cadillac’s patented, manifold-integrated water-to-air charge cooling system also contributes to more immediate torque response, because the compressors blow through very short pipes up to the intercooler.

With no circuitous heat-exchanger tubing, there is essentially no lag with the response of the turbochargers. Airflow routing volume is reduced by 60 percent when compared with a conventional design that features a remotely mounted heat exchanger."

Wonder how well they're doing with air charge temps.

AGP Turbo · 09-12-2016, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Except it will cause more turbo lag. Cadillac takes a different route

"Cadillac’s patented, manifold-integrated water-to-air charge cooling system also contributes to more immediate torque response, because the compressors blow through very short pipes up to the intercooler.

With no circuitous heat-exchanger tubing, there is essentially no lag with the response of the turbochargers. Airflow routing volume is reduced by 60 percent when compared with a conventional design that features a remotely mounted heat exchanger."

Wonder how well they're doing with air charge temps.

You're thinking the wrong kind of intercooler there.

Atomic Ed · 09-13-2016, 02:22 PM

Sorry that I disappeared on this post. My point of putting this up was simply to point out the conservatism of the canned tunes and the rational behind them. I've been trying to educate myself about PDs and how they differ from the turbo systems I'm used to playing with. This seemed like a good summary article.

One of the points in this article, and several other sources of information, is that there is plenty of easy power still available if we want to go get it. My perception is that there is about another 75-100 rwhp that can be had with little effort. Beyond the 650ish rwhp, the LT1 runs into fuel and short block limitations, regardless of what type of power adder anyone runs.

I still have an interest in experimenting with trying to manage the timing pull either through lower IATs and/or better tuning. This article re-affirmed that the tuning plays into the timing management in a big way.

Les, while you are correct in no way will the Edelbrock warranty match the GM warranty, however, you left out an important point. Edelbrock requires that the installer must be either a dealership or an ASTM mechanic. The installer is required to fill out and sign the warranty paperwork and submit it. I think Edelbrock's idea is to draw the installer into the warranty issue. The dealership that installed mine has had two claims so far. They were very emphatic about staying inside the warranty window if they were to honor the warranty. One claim was denied because the installer did not sign the paperwork.

That said, my view of the Edelbrock warranty is that gives me some trial time to run with the system and test it out/break it in. I can't see me running the full 36k miles without adding to the system (CAI, headers, tune, etc.), but I do see me running for a long while to ensure the baseline system is adequate and sound. Over the next few months, we'll be hearing how these systems play out after they are modified and what are the fail points.

Hey, these thing are still crazy fun to drive, even with the conservatism in the kit tunes!

09-10-2016, 02:06 PM	#1
Atomic Ed Drives: 2001 Audi TT, 2016 Camaro Join Date: May 2016 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 833	Article on PD heat soak Interesting article on Vengeance Racing's research on the LT4 heat soak/IATs and GM's conservative tuning. Vengeance was able to go from 585 to 660 rwhp with just a CAI, smaller pulley, and a less conservative ECM remap. GM's response in the article would probably be echoed by Edelbrock and Magnuson if you were able to get them to discuss their canned tunes in the open. http://www.autoevolution.com/news/20...tup-89790.html Just food for thought.

09-10-2016, 02:40 PM	#2
Daves1SS Drives: 2016 Camaro 1SS Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Pelham, AL Posts: 406	Good read, Ed. Thanks for sharing. It's certainly in Edelbrock's best interest (speaking of our certain situations) to keep the tune as conservative as possible to minimize their chances of forking out $$ to fix someone's car. I don't blame them one bit. Once I get to 36k miles, I will most certainly be getting a CAI, smaller pulley (probably) and definitely a different and at least somewhat more aggressive tune. Until then, I'll enjoy what I've got with the comfort of knowing I have the powertrain warranty. __________________ 2016 Nightfall Gray Metallic 1SS 6MT, Edelbrock E-force supercharged, Killer Chiller with 3-way bypass, catch can *FOR SALE, MESSAGE ME IF INTERESTED* Previous: '12 Mustang GT 6MT (12.47 @ 115.88) '09 G8 GT (11.86 @ 120.47) '05 GTO 6MT (slow, lol) '01 Grand Prix GTP converted to turbo, high 11's

09-10-2016, 10:03 PM	#4
Snowblind Drives: '16 2SS / '05 SRT10 Ram / '65 bu Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Philthy Posts: 978	The article is okay but it's not really an apples to apples comparison for you guys. The C7 has a smaller frontal area than the Camaro and has a harder time taking in fresh air. Their is no PD that can escape heat soak, it happens to all of them, so a larger intercooler is never a bad idea. As for the canned tune, it is understandable that the manufacturers of any product have to account for a number of factors when designing their own mail order tune....a FI ride in Alaska at sea level will behave differently than at elevation in Arizona, all bases have to be covered somewhat conservatively to save their ass. It's easy for me to sit here and say what I think you should do, it's not my money or pride and joy that is at risk. What I am saying is that their are enough guys out there that have sprayed or boosted (at 6-7 lbs) and we haven't heard of 1 catastrophic failure yet. The LT1 seems like it can handle it so I would recommend a custom tune (for YOUR car where YOU live) to get all that you can out of your Beast. Edit; I meant to say heat exchanger and not intercooler in paragraph one, sorry. __________________ H/C SBE 9.80@140 powered by Texas Speed Last edited by Snowblind; 09-13-2016 at 11:59 AM.

09-12-2016, 05:34 PM	#6
Daves1SS Drives: 2016 Camaro 1SS Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Pelham, AL Posts: 406	I did read through it, and agree it does give them tons of outs. I guess I feel better about at least having a chance of having a failure covered then no chance at all. __________________ 2016 Nightfall Gray Metallic 1SS 6MT, Edelbrock E-force supercharged, Killer Chiller with 3-way bypass, catch can *FOR SALE, MESSAGE ME IF INTERESTED* Previous: '12 Mustang GT 6MT (12.47 @ 115.88) '09 G8 GT (11.86 @ 120.47) '05 GTO 6MT (slow, lol) '01 Grand Prix GTP converted to turbo, high 11's

09-13-2016, 02:22 PM	#9
Atomic Ed Drives: 2001 Audi TT, 2016 Camaro Join Date: May 2016 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 833	Sorry that I disappeared on this post. My point of putting this up was simply to point out the conservatism of the canned tunes and the rational behind them. I've been trying to educate myself about PDs and how they differ from the turbo systems I'm used to playing with. This seemed like a good summary article. One of the points in this article, and several other sources of information, is that there is plenty of easy power still available if we want to go get it. My perception is that there is about another 75-100 rwhp that can be had with little effort. Beyond the 650ish rwhp, the LT1 runs into fuel and short block limitations, regardless of what type of power adder anyone runs. I still have an interest in experimenting with trying to manage the timing pull either through lower IATs and/or better tuning. This article re-affirmed that the tuning plays into the timing management in a big way. Les, while you are correct in no way will the Edelbrock warranty match the GM warranty, however, you left out an important point. Edelbrock requires that the installer must be either a dealership or an ASTM mechanic. The installer is required to fill out and sign the warranty paperwork and submit it. I think Edelbrock's idea is to draw the installer into the warranty issue. The dealership that installed mine has had two claims so far. They were very emphatic about staying inside the warranty window if they were to honor the warranty. One claim was denied because the installer did not sign the paperwork. That said, my view of the Edelbrock warranty is that gives me some trial time to run with the system and test it out/break it in. I can't see me running the full 36k miles without adding to the system (CAI, headers, tune, etc.), but I do see me running for a long while to ensure the baseline system is adequate and sound. Over the next few months, we'll be hearing how these systems play out after they are modified and what are the fail points. Hey, these thing are still crazy fun to drive, even with the conservatism in the kit tunes!

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