[aestil]

Originally Posted by Number 3

So most people seem to be agreeing GM is taking the Camaro up in price for a "total profit" strategy and is willing to sell fewer cars in this scenario.

My question is wouldn't you still want to sell more than you projected? Wouldn't a 10 day supply of cars be better than 40 or 50? Wouldn't you then be making even MOHR profit? Of course the answer is yes.

Now let me ask everyone that bought your 16 or 17 and absolutely love it. Would you love it less if the belt line were 1/2 lower and the roof an inch higher? Would you love it less if the trunk was bigger making the car a little longer and yes, a bit heavier too? My point all along is GM could have made a car that you guys wouldn't love one bit less than you do, but have satisfied the people that wanted a great sport coupe not just a BA Camaro. Could have been both with the same invested capital.

Problem is that car would have admittedly been 50 pounds heavier and this website alone would be full of people screaming that GM had FAILED because weighed slightly more than the Mustang instead of slightly less. And this would be regardless of the fact that those changes would have had minimal impact on the performance advantage the car has.

That isn't to say that the price point isn't part of why it isn't selling as well as Gen5 or Mustang and over the last couple of months Challenger. But I'm pretty sure there would have been at least 1 more Camaro sold if it had addressed those concerns.

Quick comment, 10 day supply would be a disaster for GM and would mean that they had significantly underestimated demand and were then losing many many potential sales because of a lack of inventory.

This is like the apartment owner who never has any vacancies. It may seem like thats a good thing, in that he is collecting rent on each unit every month. But actually that means that his rents are too low. He needs raise rents and have periodic vacancies. When the unit is vacant he can repaint and recarpet and then rent out the unit at a higher rate than the last person was paying. Over time when you add this up he makes more money by occasionally having vacancies than he does by never raising rent and having 100% occupancy all the time.

It's a little bit counter-intuitive [it sounds good to basically be 'sold out' of something] but actually it represents a terrible misjudgment of the market and a potential loss of many sales. GM would much prefer to be overstocked 1 month of inventory then they would to be under-stocked 1 month of inventory.

[mt3130]

I have a couple questions regarding this information.

Are the "sales" figures reported representing the number of cars delivered to dealers, or the number of cars sold by dealerships to customers?

If its the former, with GM reporting YTD sales of 42k cars, and cars.com showing 24k cars sitting on lots, does that mean that only 18k Camaros have been sold to customers in 2016?

[aestil]

Originally Posted by mt3130

I have a couple questions regarding this information.

Are the "sales" figures reported representing the number of cars delivered to dealers, or the number of cars sold by dealerships to customers?

If its the former, with GM reporting YTD sales of 42k cars, and cars.com showing 24k cars sitting on lots, does that mean that only 18k Camaros have been sold to customers in 2016?

I am 99% sure that these figures are the sold through to customers number.

[mt3130]

Originally Posted by aestil

I am 99% sure that these figures are the sold through to customers number.

That's what I thought, but when I read the FCA sale investigation story, it mentioned that FCA, GM and Ford all report on cars delivered to dealers, so I thought I would ask.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by mt3130

I have a couple questions regarding this information.

Are the "sales" figures reported representing the number of cars delivered to dealers, or the number of cars sold by dealerships to customers?

If its the former, with GM reporting YTD sales of 42k cars, and cars.com showing 24k cars sitting on lots, does that mean that only 18k Camaros have been sold to customers in 2016?

The sales figures are sales to customers not production or number of vehicles shipped to dealers.

So far, Chevrolet has sold to customers 42,354 new Camaros. That is a mix of 2015, 2016 and 2017 model years. January through April was a heavy mix of 2015 and 2016 Camaros. May, June and July have been almost entirely 6th gen Camaros. There are some 2015s still available but there hasn't been significant volume of 2015s available since the 5th gen fire sale in March/April.

[Realist]

Originally Posted by Richard0nee

Hilarious! lol My point is, if you're not impress with the new interior change, I think you really want it to look like an upscale luxury car or some sort. It changed a lot and I'm not sure what will impress you!

As I have always said though, looks is def. subjective and if you feel that the changes to the 6th Gen wasn't enough, I respect that.

The whole post is about camaro, mustang and challenger sales. Now we have to compare to others outside its direct competition? Yes the SS pulls sales from some others but I bet the bulk of Camaro sales probable avg low $30k. You aren't gonna get into any SS or BMW for $30k.

So it's the lower end market and when peep compare the 3, they appear to prefer the looks and value it's direct competition offers a bit more. Hell Im a Camaro dude but the challenger look is timeless. U can pickup an RT v8 for less then $30k right now. Now it's not for me but it maybe for others who don't want to spend $30k or more.

[aestil]

Originally Posted by mt3130

That's what I thought, but when I read the FCA sale investigation story, it mentioned that FCA, GM and Ford all report on cars delivered to dealers, so I thought I would ask.

Quarterly earnings probably reflect the number of vehicles delivered to dealers, monthly car sales reports reflect the number of cars sold to customers.

[germanicus]

Greetings all. Longtime lurker.

About 4 months ago I was in the market for a new vehicle. I came from a family that heavily favored Chevy (father owned 2 classic vettes over the years), but I personally have no brand loyalty. Whichever product meets my needs gets my dollar. I only shy away from a brand if the company is egregiously flagrant in abusive business practices (VW diesel gate).

I was interested in a sporty 2 door coupe, not necessarily a Muscle or Pony car. I don't go out at night looking to drag race other cars. So something that's relatively fast for occasional spirited backroad driving, can be taken to a track day once or twice a year, but used mainly as a DD.

I looked at Camaro, Mustang, Nissan (370z), and used BMW z4's and Porsches. I found that the Camaro, of the new vehicles I tested, performed well compared to the Mustangs and 370z, but I did not like the interior and visibility. I found the exterior styling a little too 'transformers' (an issue I have with the new Stingray as well). Nothing overwhelming, but I preferred the smoother lines of the Mustangs new generation.

I ultimately ended up with a PP GT, which cost me under 33k out the door. The alternative (for what I was willing to spend - cash) would have been a 1ss, and I didn't find the slight performance advantage (which would only really be felt on track days or autocross events) sufficient to overcome my preference in styling/visibility and the higher price (out the door a 1ss was over 36k).

Just my 2 cents.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Doc

Chevy has managed to put themselves in a bind with this car. The performance team wanted it to perform like a $66K+ car and they nailed it. It is now without question, a high-performance sports GT. The style team however, wasn't willing to stray too far from the 5th gen and that's where the bind is. The price reflects what the performance team created, but that's not something you see when you look at the car.

If they want to move the Camaro upscale to compete with something like a BMW, they're going to have to upscale the looks. It's nice as it is, but nice isn't enough. Even though it performs like a $66k+ car, it doesn't look like one...it just doesn't. Regardless of what the apologists want to say, the looks don't match the public's perception of what a car in that performance category should look like, and that's the bind Chevy is in.

I'm sorry to have to say, that regardless of what it costs, they have to completely redesign the body and interior IF they want it to truly move upscale. Where it sits right now, it has completely lost the blue-collar impulse buyer, which is why there's such a backlog of inventory. Buyers are looking at what clearly looks like a slightly upgraded 5th gen Camaro, and then they look at the sticker price and go....nope.

Now if it looked like something that should have McLaren or Aston Martin on the side, then that would be a different story. Once you hit a certain price point, and the Camaro has clearly reached that point, looks and style become dramatically more important than just performance. I think the Camaro team focused on catering to the 20% of the customer base who wanted performance, and they nailed it. And that's where the bulk of the sales have been. But it doesn't appear they've pulled anybody from the higher levels of affluence who are the BMW sports GT customers. So they're somewhat stuck. Too expensive for the 80%, not stylish enough for the upper affluent types, already sold to the loyal 20%. Where do they go from here?

My recommendation would be to either come out with a much more affordable base model, or go all-in on upscale and redesign the body and interior to match what the performance team has (and is) delivering. Although unfortunately, I don't think that even with an upscale look, they'll get the blue-collar worker back. It's already out of their price range and market segment. If leaving them behind is their plan, well okay but get serious about being truly upscale, and that absolutely includes looks. If you want to appeal to the supercar segment, it better look like it or they won't even give it a second look.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. They need a revived pony car, like the original Camaro. The 80% of the market they're leaving behind might not be the most affluent, but they buy a LOT of cars and there's a lot to be said for marketing and street presence. Street reputation among that crowd counts for a lot when it comes to buying decisions. The words "too expensive" are a sales-killer, and unfortunately that appears to be where the 6th gen is sitting right now.

I agree to an extent but the Camaro has to serve a large range of buyers now from a base 1LT with a turbo 4 or V6 to a ZL1 monster. I realize everyone gets freaked out about price now but I think folks forget that the average price of a new car is $33,781 now. I bought a 455hp 2SS with MRC, 8 speed performance transmission, NPP, Nav and all the other cool goodies that comes with this car and it for just over 40k. That is a steal if you know what you are actually getting.

You make a good point that most people don't actually know what they are buying. They are not enthusiasts and have no passion for the car so they don't spend any time researching, etc. It is not just cars, most people don't have the time or patience to research anything before they buy it. My family knows nothing about buying a computer but at least they will ask me I will guide them in the right direction for their needs.

Again, when it comes to Camaro sales we are really talking about the 1LT/2LT since that represents 80% of Camaro sales. The folks buying SSs, 1LEs, ZL1s and Z28s know exactly what they are buying. The key to increasing sales is to appeal to the 80% of 1LT/2LT buyers. That is where the sales challenge lies and unfortunately target audience is not seeing the value in a 1LT/2LT over a cheaper Mustang.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by germanicus

Greetings all. Longtime lurker.

About 4 months ago I was in the market for a new vehicle. I came from a family that heavily favored Chevy (father owned 2 classic vettes over the years), but I personally have no brand loyalty. Whichever product meets my needs gets my dollar. I only shy away from a brand if the company is egregiously flagrant in abusive business practices (VW diesel gate).

I was interested in a sporty 2 door coupe, not necessarily a Muscle or Pony car. I don't go out at night looking to drag race other cars. So something that's relatively fast for occasional spirited backroad driving, can be taken to a track day once or twice a year, but used mainly as a DD.

I looked at Camaro, Mustang, Nissan (370z), and used BMW z4's and Porsches. I found that the Camaro, of the new vehicles I tested, performed well compared to the Mustangs and 370z, but I did not like the interior and visibility. I found the exterior styling a little too 'transformers' (an issue I have with the new Stingray as well). Nothing overwhelming, but I preferred the smoother lines of the Mustangs new generation.

I ultimately ended up with a PP GT, which cost me under 33k out the door. The alternative (for what I was willing to spend - cash) would have been a 1ss, and I didn't find the slight performance advantage (which would only really be felt on track days or autocross events) sufficient to overcome my preference in styling/visibility and the higher price (out the door a 1ss was over 36k).

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for the honest feedback. I think you represent a lot of folks. We definitely hit the limit on performance for the street. I would agree there is no reason to buy a SS over a Mustang GT just for performance numbers if all you do is drive to work, gym and get groceries. I love other things that the Camaro was able to offer me such as Magride, controllable NPP exhaust, quick shifting 8 speed auto trans. I really like the HUD and ventilated leather seats as well. The are both great cars but I just felt more at home in the Camaro.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Again, when it comes to Camaro sales we are really talking about the 1LT/2LT since that represents 80% of Camaro sales. The folks buying SSs, 1LEs, ZL1s and Z28s know exactly what they are buying. The key to increasing sales is to appeal to the 80% of 1LT/2LT buyers. That is where the sales challenge lies and unfortunately target audience is not seeing the value in a 1LT/2LT over a cheaper Mustang.

THIS ^^^^ These sales debates always normalyl end up talking SS vs GT or SS vs Scat Pack or SS firing shots at M cars.

The real debate is the LT trims vs the V6/Ecoboost Mustang. That is where the majority of sales come from.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by shaffe

THIS ^^^^ These sales debates always normalyl end up talking SS vs GT or SS vs Scat Pack or SS firing shots at M cars.

The real debate is the LT trims vs the V6/Ecoboost Mustang. That is where the majority of sales come from.

Yeah, most folks don't realize that they only sell 15-25k Camaros SS or higher trims each year. That is less v8 Camaros sold per year than Corvette Stingrays. Corvette sales are slowing a bit now but they have been selling 33-34k of them per year in the US for the last 2 year years.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

it was like they took the fifth gen, and sent it to a finishing school ran by Black Sabbath. .

Why aren't you writing commercials for GM right now. A black SS roaring through an empty race track at night with Children of the Grave main riff blaring in the background. Powerslides up next to Toni Iommi in a professors outfit and he presents it with it's finishing school diploma.


Sorry got carried away.

[Richard0nee]

Originally Posted by shaffe

THIS ^^^^ These sales debates always normalyl end up talking SS vs GT or SS vs Scat Pack or SS firing shots at M cars.

The real debate is the LT trims vs the V6/Ecoboost Mustang. That is where the majority of sales come from.

I agree, not sure why the dealers are also loading V6's for over 36k! That's nuts!!!

The EB/V6 are selling great for the Stang and the price of the 2.0T/V6 is just too high.

If I was GM, I would leave the cost of the SS (worth every damn penny lol) but DEF. lower the price of the 2.0T/V6.. or add a lot of incentives for the base and mid tier trims.