[RagingHawk]

Wow, those folks up at Mustang6g have some serious inferiority issues, lol. Nobody here is down talking the mustang, most of us agree it is a good car. We also aren't making any 'excuses', we are analyzing details/possibilities of why sales aren't so high.

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by Doc

After giving it a considerable amount of thought, I think price is kind-of sort-of the issue but in a roundabout way. The Camaro team was so focused on performance they went out and created a car with capabilities that compete squarely with cars twice the price. This is great and they did a fantastic job... under the skin.

Here's where the problem comes in. The Camaro as a brand doesn't have the brand reputation of a car that's $50k+ which is the category its performance actually puts it. The problem I think is that it has the styling of a car that sells for $30k+, not $60k-$70k-$80k which is where its performance is competing. For those who understand the performance value, they're buying it (people on this site for example) because they value the performance. Unfortunately that group is not the majority. I think the majority of buyers are primarily influenced by looks, and they're looking at a car that in their perception does not have the name, status or looks that fit the sticker price.

Now, IF the Camaro had the looks of an $80k car, but a sticker price of $40k+ you can bet they wouldn't be able to keep them on the lots. Price is only an issue if the customer doesn't perceive the product as being worth the price. Once you cross a certain price point, looks and status become much more important. Unfortunately it appears the customer base has decided the Camaro has crossed that line. In their minds it just doesn't have the looks to match the sticker price. They're apparently still thinking of it as a $25k-$40k car, and the styling isn't different or exotic enough to convince them otherwise.

I know it's going to be expensive, but they may need to do a visual refresh much earlier than planned. The performance is already there to compete with $70k+ cars; they just need to put the effort into the looks so it looks like it performs. Now I know the uproar is coming from those who bought one and feel the need to justify it by defending the looks, but the sales trends clearly indicate there's an issue which they are going to want to address. I think they need to upgrade the looks to match the performance category, otherwise the public isn't going to change its perception of the Camaro's value.

I agree with this. Good news if you're not wild about the styling, there is no way the next Camaro doesn't take a larger departure and doesn't have better visibility.

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by RagingHawk

Wow, those folks up at Mustang6g have some serious inferiority issues, lol. Nobody here is down talking the mustang, most of us agree it is a good car. We also aren't making any 'excuses', we are analyzing details/possibilities of why sales aren't so high.

I do wonder if the sky was falling over there from oh, say 2010 to around 2015, when the Camaro outsold the Mustang.

For some reason, I doubt it. Now that the Mustang is the better seller, it's the most important thing to them.

[mt3130]

Originally Posted by Doc

After giving it a considerable amount of thought, I think price is kind-of sort-of the issue but in a roundabout way. The Camaro team was so focused on performance they went out and created a car with capabilities that compete squarely with cars twice the price. This is great and they did a fantastic job... under the skin.

Here's where the problem comes in. The Camaro as a brand doesn't have the brand reputation of a car that's $50k+ which is the category its performance actually puts it. The problem I think is that it has the styling of a car that sells for $30k+, not $60k-$70k-$80k which is where its performance is competing. For those who understand the performance value, they're buying it (people on this site for example) because they value the performance. Unfortunately that group is not the majority. I think the majority of buyers are primarily influenced by looks, and they're looking at a car that in their perception does not have the name, status or looks that fit the sticker price.

Now, IF the Camaro had the looks of an $80k car, but a sticker price of $40k+ you can bet they wouldn't be able to keep them on the lots. Price is only an issue if the customer doesn't perceive the product as being worth the price. Once you cross a certain price point, looks and status become much more important. Unfortunately it appears the customer base has decided the Camaro has crossed that line. In their minds it just doesn't have the looks to match the sticker price. They're apparently still thinking of it as a $25k-$40k car, and the styling isn't different or exotic enough to convince them otherwise.

I know it's going to be expensive, but they may need to do a visual refresh much earlier than planned. The performance is already there to compete with $70k+ cars; they just need to put the effort into the looks so it looks like it performs. Now I know the uproar is coming from those who bought one and feel the need to justify it by defending the looks, but the sales trends clearly indicate there's an issue which they are going to want to address. I think they need to upgrade the looks to match the performance category, otherwise the public isn't going to change its perception of the Camaro's value.

I mostly agree with this. GM relied on feedback from enthusiasts and 5th gen owners when designing the 6th gen. The problem is that they should have figured out how to appeal to car buyers on a global scale like Ford did with the Mustang.

When I went to test drive the car, the other thing that was striking to me was that the car doesn't have a great first impression. Sight lines are bad, the interior feels even more claustrophobic and cave-like than the 5th gen, and the laughably bad after thought infotainment system slapped on the dash. If all you are looking for a toy/weekend car, then its a great car. If you are looking for a daily driver (which the majority of drivers in this price range are looking for), then the performance doesn't do enough to entice many to spend the kind of money GM is asking for.

My impression of the car was that if you have a 5th gen, you step right in and love the car. If you are coming from anything else, you initially wonder what people like about this car. Then you drive it and have the time of your life, but have to decide if you can overcome the car's shortcomings.

Note: you get used to the sight lines pretty quickly, but I'm not sure people will stay in the car long enough to get to that point.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by American Legend

Ford dealer cost out the door is a different story.
go to autotrader.com or cargurus.com.
You'll find loaded '16 Mustang GT Premiums for ~$37,000.

MSRP on my car was $47,200, paid $41,100. I have scoured the market and there is no car on the market that offers what the Camaro SS offers for $41k.

Motortrend gets it, which is why they are comparing it to the BMW M4. They don't even think it is fair to compare it to the Mustang and Chally until those manufacturers revamp their platforms. As a previous GEN5 2SS 1LE owner I can honestly tell you that the GEN6 is a quantum leap improvement over the GEN5. When the G6 1LE comes out it will probably blow everyone away again and beat cars costing twice as much as it. Then we have the ZL1 and Z28 not to mention all the R&D benefits we gain from the Corvette teams.

So, if you are enthusiast then the Camaro is the clear winner but unfortunately enthusiasts only represent a tiny portion of the market, which means everybody else will only evaluate looks and price. Too bad they will be missing out on the best part, which is the driving experience.

[90503]

Any good news or spin about the Camaro is conspicuously absent, but just for fun here's Fen's latest post...


http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=458460


Chevrolet, Buick and Cadillac Retail Sales Increases Drive GM’s June Share Growth


2016-07-01





Print Print Send Email Download Plain Text PDF Word Share Add This

◾Chevrolet, Buick and Cadillac June retail sales up 3 percent, 2 percent and 5 percent, respectively
◾GM retail sales up more than 1 percent and retail share up year-over-year
◾Year to date, GM retail sales up more than 1 percent; retail share up 0.4 percentage points
◾Less profitable daily rental deliveries down 5,690 vehicles or 22 percent in June, as planned

DETROIT – General Motors (NYSE: GM) sold 209,295 vehicles to individual or “retail” customers in June, up more than 1 percent year-over-year, driven by increases at Chevrolet, Buick and Cadillac of 3 percent, 2 percent and 5 percent, respectively. Based on initial estimates, GM gained 0.1 percentage points of retail share in June to remain the fastest growing full-line automaker. GM has gained retail market share in 13 of the past 14 months, dating to April 2015. Less profitable daily rental sales were down 5,690 vehicles or 22 percent, as planned. GM’s total sales in June were down less than 2 percent to 255,210 vehicles.

Through the first six months of the year, GM retail sales are up more than 1 percent and retail share is up 0.4 percentage points, the largest retail share gain of any full-line automaker and more than double the industry’s average over that timeframe. Year to date, Chevrolet retail sales are up 3 percent and retail share has grown 0.5 percentage points. Chevrolet remains the fastest-growing full-line brand in the industry. Year to date, Buick retail deliveries have grown 4 percent and Buick has gained 0.1 percentage points of retail share.

GM’s retail sales strength is reflected in the ongoing sales performance of the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra full-size pickups. Every month since January 2014, GM has sold more full-size pickups than any other original equipment manufacturer, according to Polk retail registrations and J.D. Power PIN retail sales data. GM is achieving these results while spending less on incentives than its competitors and commanding record Average Transaction Prices (ATPs). In June, GM full-size pickup ATPs were up $3,300 compared to last year and Silverado recorded its highest monthly ATP in history. Year to date, GM full-size pickup ATPs are up $2,600 compared to last year.

“Our retail-focused strategy is resulting in the highest share gains in the industry. Chevrolet is the fastest growing full-line brand and we expect that trend to continue as the availability of newly launched products improves in the second half of the year,” said Kurt McNeil, U.S. vice president of Sales Operations. “Our reduction in daily rental deliveries, disciplined incentive spending and well-managed inventories are showing real benefit in the residual values of our latest launched vehicles.”

GM expects better availability of midsize pickups, full-size pickups and small, compact and midsize crossovers in the second half of the year due to planned production schedules.

As part of its retail-focused strategy, GM continues to reduce daily rental deliveries, as planned. Year to date, GM’s daily rental deliveries are down about 88,499 vehicles or 37 percent from a year ago.
In addition, GM continues to capitalize on a strong, stable economy that is driving sales to small businesses.

“Positive economic indicators like historically low interest rates, stable fuel prices, rising wages and near-full employment provide the environment for strong auto sales to continue in the second half of the year,” said Mustafa Mohatarem, GM’s chief economist. “These positive factors continue to point toward another record year for the industry.”

June Retail Sales and Business Highlights vs. 2015 (except as noted)

Chevrolet
◾Chevrolet had its best June since 2006
◾Colorado, Suburban, Tahoe and Trax up 27 percent, 37 percent, 25 percent and 23 percent, respectively
◾Impala, Sonic, Spark and Volt up 77 percent, 41 percent, 96 percent and 57 percent, respectively
◾Impala had its best month since September 2008
◾Sonic had its best June ever
◾Tahoe and Suburban had their best June performance since 2008
◾Colorado had its best June since 2006
◾Silverado Crew Cab had its best June since 2005
◾Silverado Heavy Duty had its best year to date since 2008

GMC
◾Canyon, Yukon XL, Yukon up 34 percent, 13 percent and 21 percent, respectively
◾Denali had its highest penetration of the year at more than 25 percent of GMC sales, maintaining the best first-half penetration on record
◾Year to date, Canyon, Sierra, Yukon and Yukon XL are up 15 percent, 4 percent, 16 percent and 9 percent, respectively
◾June was the second highest monthly ATP ever for the brand
◾Yukon has its 10th consecutive month of year-over-year increases
◾Best Sierra year-to-date sales since 2006

Buick
◾Encore up 25 percent for the 30th consecutive month of year-over-year increases
◾Cascada and Envision are off to strong starts with 755 and 1,436 deliveries, respectively

Cadillac
◾Escalade up 21 percent
◾Launch products off to a strong start — 3,844 XT5’s and 958 CT6’s were sold in June
◾ATPs were approximately $55,000, the highest in the luxury segment


Average Transaction Prices (ATP)/Incentives (J.D. Power PIN estimates)
◾GM’s ATPs, which reflect retail transaction prices after sales incentives, were $35,423, more than $4,400 above the industry average and more than $1,800 above last June’s performance
◾GM’s incentive spending as a percentage of ATPs was 10.1 percent in June, well below domestic and many Asian competitors and below the industry average of 10.6 percent


Fleet and Commercial
◾GM’s fleet mix in June was approximately 18 percent of total sales, below the company’s full-year guidance of 20 percent
◾Commercial sales were down 7 percent, compared to last June. Calendar year-to-date, Commercial sales are up 4 percent, driven by mid pickup sales up 31 percent and full-size pickup sales up 12 percent
◾Government sales were up 8 percent in June. Year to date, Government sales are up 10 percent
◾Small business sales were up 2 percent and up 5 percent year to date

Industry Sales
◾GM estimates that the seasonally adjusted annual selling rate (SAAR) for light vehicles in June was 17.0 million units. On a calendar year-to-date basis, GM estimates the light vehicle SAAR was 17.3 million units
◾Year to date, industry sales are up 1 percent, compared to 2015

General Motors Co. (NYSE:GM, TSX: GMM) and its partners produce vehicles in 30 countries, and the company has leadership positions in the world's largest and fastest-growing automotive markets. GM, its subsidiaries and joint venture entities sell vehicles under the Chevrolet, Cadillac, Baojun, Buick, GMC, Holden, Jiefang, Opel, Vauxhall and Wuling brands. More information on the company and its subsidiaries, including OnStar, a global leader in vehicle safety, security and information services, can be found at http://www.gm.com

[90503]

Maybe this little nugget is referring to the Camaro...

“Our retail-focused strategy is resulting in the highest share gains in the industry. Chevrolet is the fastest growing full-line brand and we expect that trend to continue as the availability of newly launched products improves in the second half of the year,” said Kurt McNeil, U.S. vice president of Sales Operations. “Our reduction in daily rental deliveries, disciplined incentive spending and well-managed inventories are showing real benefit in the residual values of our latest launched vehicles.”

[95birdible]

I just built my exact car. 2016 1SS vs my 2012 1SS vert. MSRP to MSRP is over 7 grand more. OTD price is almost 10 grand. Being my car is paid off, I don't like the looks or the 6th Gen nor does my wife, nothing would entice me a current 5th Gen owner to upgrade. Granted I would get more content in the 6th Gen but I don't want it. The styling and price are holding many 5th Gen owners back IMO. The only thing they may go for is the upgraded performance.

[nvrsatisfied]

Originally Posted by 95birdible

I just built my exact car. 2016 1SS vs my 2012 1SS vert. MSRP to MSRP is over 7 grand more. OTD price is almost 10 grand. Being my car is paid off, I don't like the looks or the 6th Gen nor does my wife, nothing would entice me a current 5th Gen owner to upgrade. Granted I would get more content in the 6th Gen but I don't want it. The styling and price are holding many 5th Gen owners back IMO. The only thing they may go for is the upgraded performance.

Great! Keep your car and save your money!

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by 95birdible

I just built my exact car. 2016 1SS vs my 2012 1SS vert. MSRP to MSRP is over 7 grand more. OTD price is almost 10 grand. Being my car is paid off, I don't like the looks or the 6th Gen nor does my wife, nothing would entice me a current 5th Gen owner to upgrade. Granted I would get more content in the 6th Gen but I don't want it. The styling and price are holding many 5th Gen owners back IMO. The only thing they may go for is the upgraded performance.

I would just test drive one for the fun of it and see what you think. The interior upgrade alone is worth it. I find the G6 so much more comfortable inside. The leather seats are much softer and ventilated now. There are soft touch materials where your elbows touch now. The cockpit feels like a sports car now. The electronic dash is a work of art with its performance pages, g-meters and lap timers, etc.

[6bangerBOOM]

Originally Posted by 95birdible

I just built my exact car. 2016 1SS vs my 2012 1SS vert. MSRP to MSRP is over 7 grand more. OTD price is almost 10 grand. Being my car is paid off, I don't like the looks or the 6th Gen nor does my wife, nothing would entice me a current 5th Gen owner to upgrade. Granted I would get more content in the 6th Gen but I don't want it. The styling and price are holding many 5th Gen owners back IMO. The only thing they may go for is the upgraded performance.

Im not wild about some of the styling of the car, but I love everything else about it. So I took the leap and got one. It could look like a Smart For-Two, when you crank an LT1 you're smiling.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by 90503

Maybe this little nugget is referring to the Camaro...

“Our retail-focused strategy is resulting in the highest share gains in the industry. Chevrolet is the fastest growing full-line brand and we expect that trend to continue as the availability of newly launched products improves in the second half of the year,” said Kurt McNeil, U.S. vice president of Sales Operations. “Our reduction in daily rental deliveries, disciplined incentive spending and well-managed inventories are showing real benefit in the residual values of our latest launched vehicles.”

This is the part that is most significant to me. Build your brand by not trashing your customers residual value.

[MovieGuy]

People without jobs won't buy new cars.

[90503]

Originally Posted by MovieGuy

People without jobs won't buy new cars.

Right....but they have no problem buying beer, cigarettes, and cell phones. So they've got that going for them.