[Moreair1]

Originally Posted by gajagfan

Where are the results of this test?

Very first post here is the dyno comparison

[GoldCartridgeGamer]

This test was not fair in any way based on the parts list. I'd like to see a true GM guy build and tune the LS3 versus a true Ford guy build and tune the Coyote.

[SpeedIsLife]

They could have spent less money on the Coyote...

The Coyote didn't need the forged connecting rods and pistons considering stock motor Coyote's have gone 60,000+ miles on 10lbs+ of boost. That alone, combined with the valve springs, which weren't needed, would have saved $2,000 on the Coyote build.

They used the Stage 3 Comp Cams, but used the Boss intake manifold, which is a mismatch to the Cams. Ideally they should have used the Cobra Jet intake manifold+TB+intake...which would have resulted in a savings of about $1,500 still off the total build.

They used phase limiters on the Comp Cams, but in reality a good tuner doesn't need the limiters, and can carefully tune the valve events to enable full sweep on the cams. Shawn at AED and I think another shop can tune that. This would result in power gains everywhere and no power loss in the low-middle end. By not running the limiters they would have saved $73.00 off the build.

The MSD Blaster Coils were not needed, at all. That would have saved $339.00 from the build.

The head studs are not needed because you're not running boost, period, thus saving $360.00

So, in reality..they would have had a 540hp/430 TQ Coyote for $2,722 less than the build they showed.

They weren't going for a true "best bang for the buck" build with the Coyote, they added a lot of pointless stuff that artificially inflated the price of the 5.0 build.

[TheReaper]

Crate motor versus used truck motor, not a good start.

[HDRDTD]

No doubt, everyone will have there own opinions for what parts they would choose when building each engine, resulting in different dyno results for each.

What I got out of the article was that considering the budget cap, and the cost for parts in general for both engines, the LS3 can be built to a higher output for the same price (more or less) than the Coyote, but on the other hand the Coyote is a much higher revving engine with much potential.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by HDRDTD

No doubt, everyone will have there own opinions for what parts they would choose when building each engine, resulting in different dyno results for each.

What I got out of the article was that considering the budget cap, and the cost for parts in general for both engines, the LS3 can be built to a higher output for the same price (more or less) than the Coyote, but on the other hand the Coyote is a much higher revving engine with much potential.

Yeah that's fair enough...it would always have the torque advantage, just with the other combination of parts that I listed, the HP advantage would have been minimal.

My issue with the Coyote build list is they added things that plain and simple didn't need to be added. It's like the build the Coyote to take high boost, but ran it with N/A cams and at a N/A compression ratio.

So a $7,800 Coyote build that would produce more power than what they had..compared with the LS3 build that out-torques it (no way around that) but otherwise is comparable.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by 2010reddevil

It's a BS article and build. They wasted money in unnecessary parts. The rods and pistons didn't have to be changed out on the Coyote, and they used NSR cams but bought aftermarket springs? Dumbasses.............SMH. The test was rigged totally in favor of the LSx. I like both engines, but FFS, if you wanna compare a 5.0L engine to another, then do it against one of similar displacement, 5.3L LSx. Start with that and go from there. The 6.2L has the tq advantage of course because of the longer stroke. Longer stroke and more displacement = more tq. And to top it off, they used CNC ported heads on the LSx and didn't do ANY head work to the Coyote. Pathetic really............. I like both of them but this test was total BS. And before any swingers chime in and say, "The LSx is lighter" I don't consider 12lbs anything to mention, really. The Coyote is physically bigger, yes. But you gotta give it to Ford for making a dohc V8 that's just as lightweight as a LSx.

Fine, if you want to reduce the displacement of the LSx, then take out 2 of the valves per cylinder and 3 of the cams from the Coyote.

Why should I give anything to Ford for making a 5.0 liter that weighs as much as a 6.2 liter?

If you want to compare by liter, the 5.0 is an overweight pig per liter.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

They could have spent less money on the Coyote...

The Coyote didn't need the forged connecting rods and pistons considering stock motor Coyote's have gone 60,000+ miles on 10lbs+ of boost. That alone, combined with the valve springs, which weren't needed, would have saved $2,000 on the Coyote build.

They used the Stage 3 Comp Cams, but used the Boss intake manifold, which is a mismatch to the Cams. Ideally they should have used the Cobra Jet intake manifold+TB+intake...which would have resulted in a savings of about $1,500 still off the total build.

They used phase limiters on the Comp Cams, but in reality a good tuner doesn't need the limiters, and can carefully tune the valve events to enable full sweep on the cams. Shawn at AED and I think another shop can tune that. This would result in power gains everywhere and no power loss in the low-middle end. By not running the limiters they would have saved $73.00 off the build.

The MSD Blaster Coils were not needed, at all. That would have saved $339.00 from the build.

The head studs are not needed because you're not running boost, period, thus saving $360.00

So, in reality..they would have had a 540hp/430 TQ Coyote for $2,722 less than the build they showed.

They weren't going for a true "best bang for the buck" build with the Coyote, they added a lot of pointless stuff that artificially inflated the price of the 5.0 build.

And using a brand new LS3 block isn't inflating the price when they could have gone and pulled any 6.2 truck block from a junk yard?

This comparison was crap on both sides but the Ford guys bitch and whine about the dumb decisions made on the Coyote side while ignoring the dumb decisions made on the LS3 side.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

And using a brand new LS3 block isn't inflating the price when they could have gone and pulled any 6.2 truck block from a junk yard?

This comparison was crap on both sides but the Ford guys bitch and whine about the dumb decisions made on the Coyote side while ignoring the dumb decisions made on the LS3 side.

Sure, they could have done that.

I'm not disputing the LS3 will make more raw power at a given price point, I was only speaking to the high price of the Coyote build.

[2010reddevil]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Fine, if you want to reduce the displacement of the LSx, then take out 2 of the valves per cylinder and 3 of the cams from the Coyote.

Why should I give anything to Ford for making a 5.0 liter that weighs as much as a 6.2 liter?

If you want to compare by liter, the 5.0 is an overweight pig per liter.

Are you ****ing kidding me? The Coyote weighs a whopping 12lbs, read that again, 12lbs FFS! Since when is that a monumental weight difference? If anything, it showcases Ford's ability to make a "complicated" dohc V8 that weighs damn near identical to a much simpler 2V. You can't remove cams/valves from an engine that already has 4 dumbass. You CAN however, use a competing engine that has similar displacement, as in the 5.3L vs the 5.0L. This is the whole point of the Mod motor vs LSx. Yes, GM used the pushrod 2V architecture to make sure it had displacement on its side. Ford didn't want to or need to redo all of its tooling to make a physically bigger block when they got their power goals done by modifying existing tooling and making better top end components. Bore centers are the only advantage the LSx has on the Mod Motor for displacement sake. Why do you think GM just went bigger with the 6.0 and 6.2L? Because they couldn't meet their target power goals and meet emissions standards with a 5.3L. Plus, they were using existing tooling as well, just like Ford.

The engine masters competition that had the Mod Motor vs LSx, the one where all the stops were pulled and the Mod Motor got all 3 podium finishes.........yeah that's right, 1st, 2nd and 3rd place owned by the Mod Motor. Level playing field between the 2, 4V dohc will ALWAYS make more power than a similar displacement pushrod 2V. That's why the 400 cu in Mod Motors were making over 600ft lbs of tq too, but dohc don't make torque, right? The LSx is the modern SBC. It's in junkyards all over the place so yes, parts are cheap, engines are cheap and everything is just plain cheap. Doesn't mean it's necessarily better, depends on what your goals are really.

Don't be ass hurt because a Coyote would curb stomp the shit out of a 5.3L N/A or boosted otherwise. I've been around both sides and know the advantages and disadvantages of both. To be blatantly brand biased and ignorant of the others is just plain............stupid.

We can carry this back and forth, the difference is I have experience on both sides, you don't seem to have any at all.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by 2010reddevil

- You can't remove cams/valves from an engine that already has 4 dumbass.

He was being sarcastic and using absurdity to make a point. The Coyote has more cams and more valves, where the LS3 has more cubes. One has an advantage the other simply does not have.

6 of one, half dozen of the other.

[Moreair1]

My view on it is we have a lot of choices now that make incredible power for what ever make you like give it dodge chevy or even ford and are also
very reliable and even get pretty good gas mileage, shoot I even read a article the other day a Mustang was using a 4.8 ls junk yard motor with a lot of boost and was running some where around 1xxx hp and if I Remember right low 8s ? Just a impressive time we live in now as far as motors and the hp they can create

[ford20]

Originally Posted by christianchevell

SO chuckles...... the test was rigged in favor of the 5.slow........... with a used engine in the parts department they must have thought it needed the pistons to make it worthy compared to a LS crate engine, oh yes and stock CNC ported heads so much more make the build they cost a extra $200........... andit was not a LSX but a common crate engine with the lame LSA stock cam.... the head work to the coyote was in the form of four friggin cams...COUNT EM. And theres more Priuses than mustangs ..... your point.

Sticking up for a rubber band, overhead cammed , Much more expensive to build 5.0 is not going to get you much for friendliness, sure they don't show the LS costs, sure they could have done them up more, sure they could use stock slugs on the coyote and work the heads, and the LS could have been used with a LSA conversion.........for that cost it so could have kicked the Coyotes arse in terms of money spent, and really blown it out of the water with FI for the LS for that cost as their money is just parts. But hey they rigged it for the coyote mostly.............

You make my head hurt ......

First, it was a GM performance block that they used then they added the Mahle pistons which bumped compression up from what is it, 10.3:1 on the stock LS3 to 11:1. It wasn't a crate motor, just read. You keep saying that the Coyote has 4 cams extra, but never neglect to say that the LS3 has an extra 76ci on the Coyote. Remember, there is no replacement for displacement. You can pump all the air you want into an engine, but the combustion chamber can only hold so much air. I just hope we don't visit the same part of Jersey.

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

They could have spent less money on the Coyote...

The Coyote didn't need the forged connecting rods and pistons considering stock motor Coyote's have gone 60,000+ miles on 10lbs+ of boost. That alone, combined with the valve springs, which weren't needed, would have saved $2,000 on the Coyote build.

They used the Stage 3 Comp Cams, but used the Boss intake manifold, which is a mismatch to the Cams. Ideally they should have used the Cobra Jet intake manifold+TB+intake...which would have resulted in a savings of about $1,500 still off the total build.

They used phase limiters on the Comp Cams, but in reality a good tuner doesn't need the limiters, and can carefully tune the valve events to enable full sweep on the cams. Shawn at AED and I think another shop can tune that. This would result in power gains everywhere and no power loss in the low-middle end. By not running the limiters they would have saved $73.00 off the build.

The MSD Blaster Coils were not needed, at all. That would have saved $339.00 from the build.

The head studs are not needed because you're not running boost, period, thus saving $360.00

So, in reality..they would have had a 540hp/430 TQ Coyote for $2,722 less than the build they showed.

They weren't going for a true "best bang for the buck" build with the Coyote, they added a lot of pointless stuff that artificially inflated the price of the 5.0 build.

I have to agree with you somewhat. For me when I add up the costs here, they could have spent around $4,000 less on the coyote and actually built it to make it worth a damn. As is that would probably put out maybe 450-460HP to the wheels with tons of room to grow from there.

TSS Oil Pump gear wasn't really needed on a N/A build that appears to only seeing some engine dyno time so that was a waste for sure.

As you said, they spent about $2100 on a forged rotating assembly which wasn't really needed either when you have the Boss rods and piston set available as well as the 2015 rod and piston combo which will hold north of 800HP all day long on a good tune.

Like you said as well, the MSD coil packs weren't needed at all when the factory COPS are better then the MSD versions.

Coyote swap oil pan wasn't needed for the build as well when the factory oil pan would have more then been good enough for the test.

Aeromotive fuel rails .... for a N/A coyote ..... Just dumb right there, even for the LS3 possibly as well. I don't know if they needed those for the IM or not, but wasted money right there.

ARP hardware throughout on a budget build? Seriously?! It makes no sense even on the LS3.

Once again like you said, they should have gone with the CJ intake, monoblade throttle body and JLT or FRPP CAI with the Comp Stage 3 cams. I am thinking that they went with the springs in order to help prevent valve float in the upper RPM range where the Boss lives and breathes though so I can understand that part. Even with just that, Stage 3 cams and cobra Jet cars are making anywhere from 500-525HP with those mods which would put it at a level playing field power wise with the LS3. They should have gone with a custom grind cam which still drives like stock with the VCT so it would have met their rules about cams. 2015 Mustang heads would have just been icing on the cake for the coyote with their larger size.

Originally Posted by Moreair1

My view on it is we have a lot of choices now that make incredible power for what ever make you like give it dodge chevy or even ford and are also
very reliable and even get pretty good gas mileage, shoot I even read a article the other day a Mustang was using a 4.8 ls junk yard motor with a lot of boost and was running some where around 1xxx hp and if I Remember right low 8s ? Just a impressive time we live in now as far as motors and the hp they can create

+1 ... the amount of power that we can make with these engines is unreal. We are talking about 8 second street cars and even the coyote has been low 7's and even 6's at this point. The time for power is right now! It is pretty wild to think that you can look at a 9 second car and think it is pretty pedestrian when a few years ago running 9's was the shit!

[Moto-Mojo]

"If you want to compare by liter, the 5.0 is an overweight pig "PER LITRE."

I thought this was the key point.