[Posaune]

Originally Posted by doc7000

Numbers with no context doesn't mean anything......

Last year on average this is what the cars sold...

Mustang: 10,195
Challenger: 2,427
Camaro: 6,458

You have peaks and you have troughs and there are different reasons why they happen....

Last year the Camaro moving almost 10,000 units was a peak and most likely happened due to discounting of that model. combine that with 2 fewer selling days this year compared to last year and you had a pretty big drop in sales for the Camaro (some 40%). However at 5,800 units is only 700 units under average for last year, currently the Camaro is averaging about 6,300 units a month year to date. If the Camaro averages some 7,000 units a month going forward then it will beat last years numbers, do we know if it will do this? it is anyones guess.

Interesting side note year to date the Mustang is down 3,382 units while the Camaro is down 2,117 and the Challenger is down 1,038 units.

Lets look at what the Camaro usually sells in May since 2010, that will give us a better look than what Camaro sold on average for all of last year.

2010 - 2015, Camaro sold on average 9,237. May is always a big month for Camaro (and sporty cars in general).

Also, last years average of 6458/month was the lowest since it returned. It was an outgoing model up against a shinny new Mustang. Everyone expected sales to be slightly off last year and rebound this year when the 6th Gen was in full swing and Mustang was in year two. Camaro has not rebounded like it should have.

Originally Posted by Marine Corps

Numbers, numbers, numbers! Buy something else if you can't afford the Camaro. The Corvette annual sales numbers rarely exceed 30k and it's going strong.

You know that the Corvette has been on the chopping block numerous times, right?

You also know that C5 and C6 production was above 30K units too? C6 sales tanked with the economy tanked, until then it was averaging nearly 37K/year. But you know all that already, don't you?

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by Posaune

Lets look at what the Camaro usually sells in May since 2010, that will give us a better look than what Camaro sold on average for all of last year.

2010 - 2015, Camaro sold on average 9,237. May is always a big month for Camaro (and sporty cars in general).

Also, last years average of 6458/month was the lowest since it returned. It was an outgoing model up against a shinny new Mustang. Everyone expected sales to be slightly off last year and rebound this year when the 6th Gen was in full swing and Mustang was in year two. Camaro has not rebounded like it should have.



You know that the Corvette has been on the chopping block numerous times, right?

2010-2015 in my mind should be considered the "peak" of sales for the modern Camaro, it should be expected to go down from there, it isn't GM that has said that they expected sales to keep going up.

The 5th Gen had the excitement of the new Camaro coming back that was also made very popular by the Transformer movie but many, many of those same Camaro fans are still paying on and still enjoying their 5th Gens, along with GM strategically lowering the sales of low profit fleet cars and moving the pricing upstream to make more profit on each unit sold.

Why should it be any surprise that sales are not going to match the excitement of the new 5th Gen?

I frankly don't think it is a surprise at all to GM. Only they know for sure, but every indication from them up to this point is that it's not a problem.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by merlin803

2010-2015 in my mind should be considered the "peak" of sales for the modern Camaro, it should be expected to go down from there, it isn't GM that has said that they expected sales to keep going up.

The 5th Gen had the excitement of the new Camaro coming back that was also made very popular by the Transformer movie but many, many of those same Camaro fans are still paying on and still enjoying their 5th Gens, along with GM strategically lowering the sales of low profit fleet cars and moving the pricing upstream to make more profit on each unit sold.

Why should it be any surprise that sales are not going to match the excitement of the new 5th Gen?

I frankly don't think it is a surprise at all to GM. Only they know for sure, but every indication from them up to this point is that it's not a problem.

So no other generation of Camaro from here on out can match the sales of the 5th gen? That is a very limiting point of view.

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by Posaune

So no other generation of Camaro from here on out can match the sales of the 5th gen? That is a very limiting point of view.

If GM's strategy was to get out of the low profit fleet sales business, along with moving the Camaro up stream, meaning less cars sold but more profit on each car sold, then they are pretty much saying that yes, they are probably going to sell less cars.

You can call it a limited point of view, it is not my plan, but it is what they have stated and yes, it would indicate that they are not necessarily in the business of trying to out sell Mustangs, but in the business of making profit with a plan that they decided to go with.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by merlin803

If GM's strategy was to get out of the low profit fleet sales business, along with moving the Camaro up stream, meaning less cars sold but more profit on each car sold, then they are pretty much saying that yes, they are probably going to sell less cars.

You can call it a limited point of view, it is not my plan, but it is what they have stated and yes, it would indicate that they are not necessarily in the business of trying to out sell Mustangs, but in the business of making profit with a plan that they decided to go with.

Doesn't explain the projected production averages for the rest of this year (average 14K units per month) and adding a third shift to the plant. GM wouldn't do that if they were expecting lower sales.

[Bhobbs]

The Camaro should be cheaper than the Mustang, even on the Alpha with the performance it offers.

It's a parts bin car. It's the 3rd iteration of the Alpha platform. The LTx is used in a big chunk of GM products.

We keep hearing how using existing platforms and power trains keeps the costs down but that never actually pans out.

Yes, the Camaro offers better performance but for how long? The Mustang won't sit still. The Coyote will get an update probably in the next year or so and be making as much, if not more power, than the Camaro.

If sales are slumping now, what is going to happen when the performance gap is much closer?

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by doc7000

No doubt having no LS Camaro also plays a role however that was planned and they probably had an understanding that they were going to give the Mustang the sales crown.

Where's your data to suggest LS cars had sold enough to be noticeable? When the models for the 6th gen it was stated by GM (or Al O. I believe) the LS was removed because it's volume of sales was insignificant. People do not buy stripped base cars in numbers, especially in a sports car. An econobox maybe.

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by Posaune

Doesn't explain the projected production averages for the rest of this year (average 14K units per month) and adding a third shift to the plant. GM wouldn't do that if they were expecting lower sales.

Only they know what their strategy is. Why would they be adding another shift if sales already were below where they were expecting?

What might explain it is if they are just now planning to finally start actually advertising and pushing to sell them.

Like I said earlier in this thread, I looked up the closest 10 dealerships to me and they only have 0-3 of each iteration of available 6th Gen Camaro's.

The bottom line is none of us know what their plan is or if they are disappointed in sales, all we have to go by is what they have said and the actions that they have taken up to this point and those things seem to indicate that they don't think it is an issue.

So why sweat it until they indicate otherwise?

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The Camaro should be cheaper than the Mustang, even on the Alpha with the performance it offers.

It's a parts bin car. It's the 3rd iteration of the Alpha platform. The LTx is used in a big chunk of GM products.

We keep hearing how using existing platforms and power trains keeps the costs down but that never actually pans out.

Yes, the Camaro offers better performance but for how long? The Mustang won't sit still. The Coyote will get an update probably in the next year or so and be making as much, if not more power, than the Camaro.

If sales are slumping now, what is going to happen when the performance gap is much closer?

If the Mustang gets those updates, then their prices are going up too and the people over on the Mustangs forums will be crying about the price.

"But I can buy a Challenger for $4,000 less and have 95% of the performance..."

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Where's your data to suggest LS cars had sold enough to be noticeable? When the models for the 6th gen it was stated by GM (or Al O. I believe) the LS was removed because it's volume of sales was insignificant. People do not buy stripped base cars in numbers, especially in a sports car. An econobox maybe.

Gen 5 LS accounted for better than 30% of Camaro volume. Some were fleet but not all. I know my local dealer would stock LS models.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Posaune

Gen 5 LS accounted for better than 30% of Camaro volume. Some were fleet but not all. I know my local dealer would stock LS models.

So probably they meant non-fleet sales of the LS were insignificant and if they planned to cut fleet sales would have matched their business plan for the 6th gen.

[ChefBorOzzy]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The Camaro should be cheaper than the Mustang, even on the Alpha with the performance it offers.

It's a parts bin car. It's the 3rd iteration of the Alpha platform. The LTx is used in a big chunk of GM products.

We keep hearing how using existing platforms and power trains keeps the costs down but that never actually pans out.

Yes, the Camaro offers better performance but for how long? The Mustang won't sit still. The Coyote will get an update probably in the next year or so and be making as much, if not more power, than the Camaro.

If sales are slumping now, what is going to happen when the performance gap is much closer?

Better transmission, better engine, better wheels/tires.. That costs money. It's a fact that the transmission and wheels and tires are better on SS than the base GT.. You can argue the engine all you want.

You're going to see a price hike on the Mustang when they put out some updates.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by 90503

Regarding the "base" models....This gen there is no "LS" version.....Perhaps this shows an intent to go up-market/up-price.....Maybe if those would have been built they would look more comparable to lower priced Mustangs....

...Also I believe they just went to a third full shift at the Camaro/Cadillac plant..(?)...Don't think they would do that if sales were unacceptable...

It would be nice to see Camaro be ahead. But as far as we know that's just about a popularity contest.....Sales being "in trouble" is something we can only guess about....

I say it's still too early to throw in the towel and declare the 6th Gen a "failure"....


Maybe some folks here are more concerned about sales than Chevy....

I wouldn't say failure, thats way to early to even think about throwing that word around. I would have to say that some inside GM are not happy with this months numbers. you can slice it any way you want, this was a bad month sales wise.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Something has to change at this point. We shall see what happens.

Having an all new NG car outsold by the Challenger is quite frankly an embarrassment for a few people at GM.

At this point someone is answering questions I expect no one thought a year plus ago were ever going to be asked.

This ^

Originally Posted by SuperSound

A PRICE CONSCIOUS buyer would immediately discount the Camaro because it costs more. PRICE CONSCIOUS buyers would simply pick the cheaper car in the category and be done, which isn't the Camaro. So if that's what you were trying to say I agree, but it didn't come out that way.

So no..no Ford salesman would make a pitch about V6 manliness or V6 is better than a T4 since he would purposely cut off his upsale push for the EB (which costs more but gets better MPG than the V6). And most buyers today do not discount the 4 cylinder. They see it as the economical choice (even though premium fuel being required usually offsets the MPG difference) over a V6. This is why Ford positioning the EB as mid tier was a real gamble, but their packaging of it and PR machine I think helped that pay off. Let's not forget the V6 in the Mustang was "purposely" downgraded on HP to make the EB seem more attractive.

Now a buyer looking for leather or other features would have a tougher decision since both the EB Premium and 2LT are very comparably matched. There's about a $600 difference in price (EB being cheaper) outside of engine power. That where the differences start to become an issue to me. Ford has the power advantage and factory HIDs at that point, where as you have to add the LGX and RS package to match the EB Premium. It's these "optioned" cars in the LT that are over priced IMO. Again...bad packaging.

Yes I made a post several pages back, that in the volume cars, once you start adding options the gap gets big quick. Maybe Camaro needs to repackage some items?

Originally Posted by SpookShow'84

This thread had some serious acceleration. Over 20 pages in 12 hours, great read and some great feedback.

Yep great read for morning coffee.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The Camaro should be cheaper than the Mustang, even on the Alpha with the performance it offers.

It's a parts bin car. It's the 3rd iteration of the Alpha platform. The LTx is used in a big chunk of GM products.

We keep hearing how using existing platforms and power trains keeps the costs down but that never actually pans out.

It may be the third iteration of the Alpha platform, but the Camaro is meant to recoup the R&D costs of the platform. It's the volume model that allows the ATS and CTS to exist as they do today.

GM only knows if they are happy about the ROI of the Alpha products at their current sales levels.

But we shouldn't have expected the Camaro to be cheaper than the Mustang just because there are two other products riding on the same platform. The Camaro is paying for the ATS/CTS. It's not the other way around.