[iroc_but5.0sdont]

Originally Posted by Richard0nee

Refresh from the outside perhaps..

But the body frame, interior is an ALL new design along with the ENGINE.

I'm a performance oriented person, no way will I buy a 5.0 then tune it, add bolt-ons, killing my warranty just so it can keep up or beat an SS.

That was the big factor since I like both cars. However, I'm too old to be modding stuff so a fast car from factory is the way to go.

people cannot see a frame, interior, or engine going down the road. All they can see is 2016 that looks like the 2015.

[Richard0nee]

I have a feeling a lot of people that is trying to justify the sales, blaming GM, not being a full redesign, etc. don't own a 6th Gen.

It's cool, I would probably do the same if I didn't own one and experience the justification of the new price tag.

[iroc_but5.0sdont]

Originally Posted by Marty McFlew

The Camaro is all new, not a refresh.

You miss the point. How can anybody notice a new Camaro is out when the design looks like the prior gen?

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Thor142

So every month the sales figures come out and every month we have this same debate because they seem low. How much longer can we go on like this before we have to admit that to most people the 6th gen is NOT a good value and GM has it priced too high?
Now having said that I'll likely still buy a 1LE or ZL1 even though I think they're going to be overpriced because I want the performance aspect and I can afford it. If I wasn't on this forum though and just wanted a sporty looking coupe Camaro wouldn't even be in the running after the sticker shock. I'm sure thats what's going on. We're a very very small minority of car buyers here.

You just gave the car "value" and contradicted yourself because the performance is worth it to you.

But the real story isn't in the GT vs SS.....it's the V6/EB Mustangs vs the Camaro LTs. Look at the price difference there...oh wait there isn't any. I have still yet to see any break outs of Mustang sales but there's no reason to believe the GTs are half their sales. So it has to be the EB or V6 driving their volume. So if the Camaro LT starts at the same price range, why aren't LTs selling more. That is what everyone needs to be asking. Everyone here wants to start with the SS vs GT because we are enthusiasts, but the reality is the low end models move the volume.

Going on the Ford site right now, every Mustang except the Shelby's have $750 off. People are generally terrible at negotiating car prices and will wait for sales/rebates/incentives to buy, even though they could easily get the same offer right now by negotiating. If there aren't any, the only people buying are those who really want that car, and price isn't so much an option. My coworker traded in his '13 V6 Mustang for a '15 GT simply because they had 0% financing and his payment would end up being the same. A prime example of the buyers in this segment.

Originally Posted by AdvanSuper

I think you're confusing balance and handling for computers...

You're right, it's many classes higher.

Bingo.

[Richard0nee]

Originally Posted by iroc_but5.0sdont

people cannot see a frame, interior, or engine going down the road. All they can see is 2016 that looks like the 2015.

If you can't see the dif, I don't know what to tell you.. I mean if they look identical yeah that would suck. There didn't need to be a big change and the subtle change is perfect.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by ThatRedFirebird

I would say it's very possible they targeted/expected lower sales numbers intentionally to make more money per car, being built on a relatively expensive Cadillac platform.

I would also say it is still successful enough to be making them happy because the Alpha Caddy cars are dying sales-wise, and so the Camaro is almost wholly subsidizing that plant right now.

I've posted this a few times today, based on production projections for LGR for the rest of 2016, sales are lagging very behind. Projections average 14K units per month, that is why an extra shift was added. All Alpha cars sold less than 9000 combined last month.

This seems to be a repeat of the ATS. Sales were expected to be high after launch and GM ramped up production, we they ended up with was a bunch of ATSs sitting on dealer lots.

Warm weather, halfway through the first year of an all new generation car should not have produced the lowest May sales since 2010.

[iroc_but5.0sdont]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

You're trying to pass off a perception as fact. Perceptions do not equal reality/facts. Yes no one is going to argue the looks of the 6th gen can be perceived as a refresh to the untrained eye. But it is NOT a fact that the 6th gen is just a refresh.

People perceiving the 6th gen as a refresh may be a fact, but the car itself is not refresh.

My point is the perception the car is getting as nobody is not even noticing it's an all new car.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

You're looking at it from a V8 perspective. The sales key is in the low end models. Need to find out why Camaro LTs aren't selling.

No secret there - for the very same reason. You can buy an equivalent Mustang or Challenger for less money. May not be by much but it matters.

And, not everyone likes the looks of the Camaro; some actually hate it.

The 6th Gen LOOKS too similar to the 5th Gen for a lot of people and therefore it isn't a 'new' car even though we all know it is definitely a new car.

[iroc_but5.0sdont]

Originally Posted by Richard0nee

If you can't see the dif, I don't know what to tell you.. I mean if they look identical yeah that would suck. There didn't need to be a big change and the subtle change is perfect.

Sir we as Camaro fans are going to see the difference but I am telling the general perception of the car.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by Richard0nee

If you can't see the dif, I don't know what to tell you.. I mean if they look identical yeah that would suck. There didn't need to be a big change and the subtle change is perfect.

Which one of these looks like an MCE, not a generation change?

[AdvanSuper]

Originally Posted by iroc_but5.0sdont

You miss the point. How can anybody notice a new Camaro is out when the design looks like the prior gen?

Ugh literally the same.






Now let's look at the Mustang which went through a similar update with modern styling.

[Hypertrophy]

Originally Posted by iroc_but5.0sdont

My point is the perception the car is getting as nobody is not even noticing it's an all new car.

I don't think anyone is arguing with you on that point. What people are trying to say is the term "refresh" is an industry term used by car manufacturers and the media to indicate that a new model is identical to a previous model other than a few styling cues.

Yes, the 6th gen Camaro shares some styling cues with the 5th fen. Yes, many people who aren't into cars cannot tell the difference. And yes, its possible the car would get more attention if it didn't look like a Camaro. Then again, those same people who can't tell the difference between different models of cars probably wouldn't realize its a camaro anyway.

Again, no one is arguing with the point you (and others) are trying to make.

[Richard0nee]

Look at the Mustang's for example.. just minor lil refreshes until 2015. Even then, some folks don't like the Fusion-esque look.

Minor changes in the exterior is fine. And with most cars, most people can't really tell the difference between a new Gen except for the new Charger and Stang. GTR, Camry, Prius, etc. all have just minor changes for 5-6 years.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by iroc_but5.0sdont

The majority of the buyers do not care about those things. When they buy a new car they want people to notice it's an all new car not a new one that looks like their old one.

Originally Posted by iroc_but5.0sdont

You miss the point. How can anybody notice a new Camaro is out when the design looks like the prior gen?

Non car people can't tell the difference between a Challenger, Mustang, and Camaro in almost every generation. How about pickups? Can the average person tell the difference between their generations? No, it looks like a truck to them. They might pick up on it being a Ford, Chevy, Dodge (but probably can't tell the difference between a GMC and Chevy) but that will be about it. Spend some time with the average car buyer at a used car lot and see if they can tell the generations apart on most cars.