[Capisce]

That mazda is pretty sleek. Looks very aston martin-y or jaguar-y

[crabman]

While the domestics have been moving up market it's also true the Germans have been moving down market. Some people will go that way simply for the brand and do it at a loss of actual car. Drive a CLA and you will see how much people are willing to give up to have that star. Most of you will have read the M4 comparo where Lieberman says something to the effect that the Camaros biggest problem is the name itself and the Chevy badge. You can love it or hate it but there is some truth to it.

There are a lot of reasons the price is going up. The escalating content itself cost money and its then sold in a profit per content sales model instead of a single profit for all the content model and that ups the ante. You also have increased safety requirements, CAFE, etc.

Speaking of that escalating content when you ask for and want to pay for entry level pricing you have to accept that you are going to get an entry level car. People are willing to do so less and less now. The average price of a new car crossed over 32k last year which is a thousand more than just one year before. My guess is when the numbers for 16 come in you're going to see more of the same. People are demanding more content in their cars. Someone before me mentioned entitlement, maybe, for whatever reason what is par is going up and the costs are going up with it.

Most people I know consider the Camaro to be a fun choice rather than practical and fun needs something fun to be fun. You gotta have performance, gadgets, something that makes a person think it's cool. Those things cost money. Take them out and you've got a car that isn't fun, isn't practical, with nothing left but style to move the metal. I'm not sure how big a pool of buyers there is who can afford no more than entry level pricing and are willing to buy a car that isn't practical or fun but looks cool? I would think there cant be too much volume there but I'm old and maybe I don't see it as the younger buyers who would be purchasing that car.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

with new sales figures just a day or so away i'm sure we'll be treated to yet another thread on this.
here's my two cents:

The manufacturers have to do something about leg-room in the back seats. Maybe create hollows in the backs of the front seats where the rear passenger's legs would be. Or extend the length of the entire body by 4 inches, or move the front of the cabin forward 2, and the rear back by 2. They have to come up with something to make those seats at least possible to sit in.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

An interesting conversation.

I'd like to toss another thought into the mix...

V8 cars will not be getting any cheaper so long as CAFE standards exist in their current form....and frankly...even the V6s and T4s aren't all that impressive in mpg anymore given a fleet of 42mpg Cruzes, 47mpg Malibus, and 100+ mpg"e" Volts and Bolts and Sparks...

CAFE standards are not killing the performance car...but they're forcing manufacturers to make them more expensive to reduce volume and thus improve the average fleet fuel economy rating. How do you do this without completely pissing off the customer? Toss more stuff into the car standard and charge for the value.

I don't know that the "V8 with wheels" car will ever exist, again.

Perception has a lot to do with how people think of "performance". Instead of building a car that can go 170 mph, which VERY few would ever actually do, build it so it can go like crazy up to 100 and that's it's big performance feature. If when you take off from the light it really mashes you back in the seat like a jet taking off, that's about all the performance most people will likely use, and they'd be quite happy with that. Take the weight out of the wheels and brake rotors, put in some hot gearing for the first 3 gears, and presto...fun and games. Use the top 3 gears for cruising and mileage.

I think there's ways to accomplish the goal, it may just require thinking differently about how to get there. I hope the V8 days stay for awhile; there's nothing like the sound of a throaty V8 when you get on it. I hardly EVER use the radio in my Camaro because the sound of the car is just so good and sweet, there's nothing on the radio that even comes close.

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

An interesting conversation.

I'd like to toss another thought into the mix...

V8 cars will not be getting any cheaper so long as CAFE standards exist in their current form....and frankly...even the V6s and T4s aren't all that impressive in mpg anymore given a fleet of 42mpg Cruzes, 47mpg Malibus, and 100+ mpg"e" Volts and Bolts and Sparks...

CAFE standards are not killing the performance car...but they're forcing manufacturers to make them more expensive to reduce volume and thus improve the average fleet fuel economy rating. How do you do this without completely pissing off the customer? Toss more stuff into the car standard and charge for the value.

I don't know that the "V8 with wheels" car will ever exist, again.

Very true statement. I agree that CAFE isn't necessarily killing the performance car, but let's face it, the small block V8 isn't cheap to make anymore. It takes a lot of research, a lot technology, and a lot of expensive parts to make a V8 meet the standards and perform reliably at the current demand level.

[That_old_guy]

Doc, I couldn't agree more! Back toward the end of 2015 my 1994 camaro died....may it rest in piece lol, and I was able to get into a 2015 v6 camaro. Base model, affordable and I loved it. Fast forward to last month...



Yes it was totaled

And now that pretty much all the 2015 camaros in my price range are sold and there is no entry level camaro anymore I went from being able to afford a camaro and being happy to having to settle for something else. That something else is my first ever none camaro, a jetta sport, only two things wrong with it are: 1) its not a camaro 2) no go fast component . Other than those is a great car, but as my wife says i bleed camaro. Now i'm just counting the days until I can trade it in for a camaro again.

[AZCamaroFan]

people post for 5 years "will the next gen lose weight?" "i sure hope performance continues to improve"
new camaro comes out 2 inches shorter...
'i want the camaro to be bigger"

[enzia35]

I want to say it's the price. I traded in my 2014 Camaro 1LS, and 2 weeks later it's already sold off their used lot.

[Mr Twisty]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

people post for 5 years "will the next gen lose weight?" "i sure hope performance continues to improve"
new camaro comes out 2 inches shorter...
'i want the camaro to be bigger"

That's certainly part of the conundrum... They can build it lighter, faster and bigger, but the price skyrockets. Build it to a price point as a lighter, faster car, it's going to be smaller.

Reminds me of the old mechanic's sign...

Our service is GOOD - FAST - CHEAP ... pick two

[nvrsatisfied]

Originally Posted by Doc

The manufacturers have to do something about leg-room in the back seats. Maybe create hollows in the backs of the front seats where the rear passenger's legs would be. Or extend the length of the entire body by 4 inches, or move the front of the cabin forward 2, and the rear back by 2. They have to come up with something to make those seats at least possible to sit in.



Perception has a lot to do with how people think of "performance". Instead of building a car that can go 170 mph, which VERY few would ever actually do, build it so it can go like crazy up to 100 and that's it's big performance feature. If when you take off from the light it really mashes you back in the seat like a jet taking off, that's about all the performance most people will likely use, and they'd be quite happy with that. Take the weight out of the wheels and brake rotors, put in some hot gearing for the first 3 gears, and presto...fun and games. Use the top 3 gears for cruising and mileage.

I think there's ways to accomplish the goal, it may just require thinking differently about how to get there. I hope the V8 days stay for awhile; there's nothing like the sound of a throaty V8 when you get on it. I hardly EVER use the radio in my Camaro because the sound of the car is just so good and sweet, there's nothing on the radio that even comes close.

I'll take it just the way it is, no changes necessary. If you want to go 100mph and top out, get a Sonic

[Techn9cian805]

Originally Posted by That_old_guy

Doc, I couldn't agree more! Back toward the end of 2015 my 1994 camaro died....may it rest in piece lol, and I was able to get into a 2015 v6 camaro. Base model, affordable and I loved it. Fast forward to last month...



Yes it was totaled

And now that pretty much all the 2015 camaros in my price range are sold and there is no entry level camaro anymore I went from being able to afford a camaro and being happy to having to settle for something else. That something else is my first ever none camaro, a jetta sport, only two things wrong with it are: 1) its not a camaro 2) no go fast component . Other than those is a great car, but as my wife says i bleed camaro. Now i'm just counting the days until I can trade it in for a camaro again.

What happened???

[That_old_guy]

Originally Posted by Techn9cian805

What happened???

rearended on the interstate, everyone panic stopped and the person behind me didnt get the memo

[at7000ft]

Originally Posted by Modshack

I really thought GM was going to have a nice, entry level performance car with the 2.0 Turbo at an affordable price....It is actually if you don't add anything to the order. Seems everyone feels somewhat "Entitled" to all the latest and greatest in features and options though.....I was honestly shocked when I saw a loaded up 4 cylinder (2LT, RS, Sunroof, auto etc) sticker for just shy of $39K. That's only $3K shy of what I paid for my nicely equipped 2SS. The pricing model here seems wrong..It may be driving the demographics up in age, but I still see plenty of 20 somethings buying $40K+++ Camaros here... I had a C7 Corvette, Made me feel old (but I am). I was the perfect demographic for that car, Not so much for the Camaro, but being old I can afford to buy what I want. Love the car, don't really care that there aren't a ton of them on the street. GM must be happy with the situation as I've yet to see any advertising...What you typically do to move the metal..

Steve - I am also old and sold a C6 vette last year that didn't make me feel old but my friends and family told me I looked older in it. Am about to order a 17 2SS just like yours +mrc, should make me feel young again (maybe).

Concerning the entry-level Camero thing, I think people's expectations have exceeded their bank accounts. No auto maker dares releasing a new car model of any kind without bluetooth, usb, auto-diming, voice recognition, puddle lights, etc. etc. Computers get smaller, lighter, faster and cheaper all at the same time, doesn't work that way with vehicles. People expect performance vehicles today to have most all the luxury items that a top of the line Mercedes has. A stock 65 GTO had (other than the big engine and heavier springs) almost nothing more option-wise than a 66 Tempest.

[motorhead]

Very interesting read here. I just think it's a sign of the times. When trucks are pushing over 60grand, what do you expect. Performance vehicles aren't going to be cheap either. It's getting out of hand just like everything else. Incomes for middle class folks have been going down for a very long time while vehicle prices have soared. Unfortunately less and less people will be able to buy these types of vehilces. I think GM sees this and is more interested in a higher margin on a lower volume car than large volumes. I would love to know what the actual profit is on a new 60k truck or an 2SS Camaro.

[AZCamaroFan]

lol
that's a good point . The base price of a Silverado is more than a Camaro. every time i see a Silverado or a Tahoe tested in a magazine my eyes pop at the price.