[Number 3]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

I went to look at a new Camaro with my wife a couple weeks ago after being talked into it by a friend of mine who bought a new SS. I have a Gen5 ZL1 and would not trade it for anything in the world so I was just "window shopping". My wife summed up what I believe is the issue here. She said, "What is the difference between this and what Mark has?". Mark has a Gen5 Camaro SS. My wife, who has been through more Camaros with me than we can count and is very much a car person, could not tell the difference in the Gen5/Gen6 SS at first glance. Now after spending 15 minutes going around the car, she recognized the rear and front fascia difference and obviously the inside improvements BUT she walked away saying, "It would have to be more than that for me to get out of my Gen5 SS if I was Mark." Now I know this is one person and you guys will probably say she is just ignorant of the true improvements in the car but if this is 50%+ of your buying public...I think it is indicative of the #'s you see in sales.

And add to that you have to pay more to get one.

Performance is the huge step up. But for some people not buying V8s, that is far less important. Seeing the car as new, having others recognize you actually got a new car are important things for new car buyers. Keep in mind, you could say this about an awful lot of cars. But people buy Camrys and Malibus like they buy appliances. A Camaro is a completely different purchase.

So again, I'd like to see the break down of V6 to V8 sales and L4 when we have more mature sales. I'd also like to see the % of male vs. female buyers. I don't suspect that has changed, but getting more women to buy a Camaro coupe would be a big deal. My suspicion is that Mustang has a higher % of women buyers than Camaro simply because it's a better coupe if you discount the HUGE performance strengths of the Camaro.

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

I went to look at a new Camaro with my wife a couple weeks ago after being talked into it by a friend of mine who bought a new SS. I have a Gen5 ZL1 and would not trade it for anything in the world so I was just "window shopping". My wife summed up what I believe is the issue here. She said, "What is the difference between this and what Mark has?". Mark has a Gen5 Camaro SS. My wife, who has been through more Camaros with me than we can count and is very much a car person, could not tell the difference in the Gen5/Gen6 SS at first glance. Now after spending 15 minutes going around the car, she recognized the rear and front fascia difference and obviously the inside improvements BUT she walked away saying, "It would have to be more than that for me to get out of my Gen5 SS if I was Mark." Now I know this is one person and you guys will probably say she is just ignorant of the true improvements in the car but if this is 50%+ of your buying public...I think it is indicative of the #'s you see in sales.

On the flip side of that, my wife really isn't a car person and just went along with me getting my previous 5th Gen cars because she knew I wanted them but when we were just at the dealership to get an oil change and on a whim went into the showroom to see the Gen 6, she fell in love with it and SHE was the one that pushed to get the 6th Gen....even though we were still a year away from my current 5th Gen lease being up.

I still say that a large majority of the general public isn't even aware of the 6th Gen and all of the improvements that it has. How would they? You almost have to be a hard core Camaro fan, or at least a car enthusiast to know anything about it.

Give it time....there is not much awareness out there yet.

[Techn9cian805]

Originally Posted by Beaveroner

I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. I've now had my Camaro for 2 months and have yet to see one in my city let alone the greater east bay. I drove 90 miles away to purchase my Camaro as I couldn't find one in my local area. Even today dealers have slim pickings, and what they do have, a bunch of loaded 2SS's, is a complete joke. After 9 years in the Auto Industry and the last 6 of those years ordering, I've learned you have to build for your demographic.

Well, if steretypes are anything to go buy, i think Frisco is more of a prius loving area, not a v8 lover land... and thats Priuths with a lisp

[Indydriver]

Odd thoughts after reading all seven pages....

Isn't the 4cyl supposed to be the car that appeals to a non-traditional (I.e., Millennial) Camaro audience? Is it even on dealer lots yet?

Indy500 convertible "parade cars" were introduced to the public here this week. Stunning paint and graphics. No doubt a Camaro will be leading the race on May 29th. Will anyone notice? http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=446816

As far as trading up from my immaculate, 10,000 mile 2014 2SS/RS vert +50 rwhp, there is absolutely no interest whatsoever. I have my dream car. I have what is probably the poorest handling of all G5 models but its limits are still very high on the street. The added "goodness" of the SIX is simply not useable for me.

[RenegadeXR]

Originally Posted by Number 3

What we do know is that GM is following up with a convertible in the same model year, they've announced the 1LE and ZL1 for the start of the very next model year and we are seeing what certainly seems to be a Z/28 on test. This means GM (Reuess and AO) didn't have to go to anyone to justify and win approval for these models. The money and expectation for profit are there from the get go.

You probably know the internal process better than I for green-lighting these kind of things, but we already know via spy photos that the 1LE and ZL1 were being developed before the 6th gen officially began to hit dealerships around October / November 2015. I would imagine a not insignificant amount of money was already spent on research and development at this point. For them to cancel these cars at the last second may also have a trickle-down effect on buyer confidence for the car overall, which sounds like is mainly selling to enthusiasts at this point. I'm also not sure what costs are involved in tooling and production, but they probably aren't as high as building a completely new car.

Where I struggle is not in thinking about whether the 1LE, ZLE, and Z/28 are coming out in the short term, where I struggle is seeing the long term strategy to give the car the same 6 year production life as the 5th gen while keeping sales volume high enough to justify continued production and investment into year-to-year improvements. I would bet this car is going to have a shorter production run, especially if Ford does follow through with plans to launch a new generation of Mustang in 2020. If and when that does happen, I don't see how they are going to respond unless they redefine the segment a bit -- make the Corvette akin to a Ford GT in performance and have the Camaro fill the role the Corvette used to have in terms of a specific performance/cost tier. As farfetched as that sounds, they might even be a smart long term strategy considering that the automotive industry is on the cusp of radical changes beyond what we've seen in decades as EVs and autonomous cars gain traction in the next 10 years. The buyer segment for cars like the v6 Camaro specifically may shrink in that sort of climate. It could even save the Camaro if they took this path, making it a purebred enthusiast car. If Chevy is thinking ahead enough to invest in thinks like the Bolt and even help catalyze that sort of future, maybe they are quietly thinking about these changes and how they will impact all their current offerings. Food for thought.

[suzook]

Originally Posted by merlin803

I still say that a large majority of the general public isn't even aware of the 6th Gen and all of the improvements that it has. How would they? You almost have to be a hard core Camaro fan, or at least a car enthusiast to know anything about it.

Give it time....there is not much awareness out there yet.

They are not aware. It's obvious by all the comments I get about mine. I get people constantly asking what kind of car is that? They love it. The difference exterior wise is very different in person between the c5 and c6. Do they look similar??? Absolutely, but the c6 is noticed everywhere I go. I don't understand people saying it's not much different. My honest opinion on the "terrible" sales numbers is the price. I have no issues paying more for a MUCH better car.

[6th Gen SS]

Originally Posted by merlin803

On the flip side of that, my wife really isn't a car person and just went along with me getting my previous 5th Gen cars because she knew I wanted them but when we were just at the dealership to get an oil change and on a whim went into the showroom to see the Gen 6, she fell in love with it and SHE was the one that pushed to get the 6th Gen....even though we were still a year away from my current 5th Gen lease being up.










I still say that a large majority of the general public isn't even aware of the 6th Gen and all of the improvements that it has. How would they? You almost have to be a hard core Camaro fan, or at least a car enthusiast to know anything about it.

Give it time....there is not much awareness out there yet.

Funny you say that bc I have not personally seen a single 6th gen cam commercial. Now that I think about it - this is weird. I do watch quite a bit of TV and have digital cable so plenty of opportunity to catch one.

Why is that? I know when the new stang came out I saw a lot of cool commercials and still see the one with the yellow stang and the pretty black gal and her microphone.

This is an ALL new car, so I don't get it. What am I missing here

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by 6th Gen SS

Funny you say that bc I have not personally seen a single 6th gen cam commercial. Now that I think about it - this is weird. I do watch quite a bit of TV and have digital cable so plenty of opportunity to catch one.

Why is that? I know when the new stang came out I saw a lot of cool commercials and still see the one with the yellow stang and the pretty black gal and her microphone.

This is an ALL new car, so I don't get it. What am I missing here

Exactly, it is mind boggling... if I had a dollar for every time I saw that stang commercial & the lady with the micropone...lol

I know I would be drooling if I ever saw a 6th Gen commercial touting it's upgrades and the accolades that it has earned already, with a stang in it's rear view mirror, lol.

[RenegadeXR]

Originally Posted by suzook

They are not aware. It's obvious by all the comments I get about mine. I get people constantly asking what kind of car is that? They love it. The difference exterior wise is very different in person between the c5 and c6. Do they look similar??? Absolutely, but the c6 is noticed everywhere I go. I don't understand people saying it's not much different. My honest opinion on the "terrible" sales numbers is the price. I have no issues paying more for a MUCH better car.

The problem is, everything you said is centralized and built on your own viewpoint without seeing the bigger picture here, as I feel is the case with many people who went out and voted with their money to buy a 6th gen Camaro. All we're saying is that the sales numbers are not as his as many people here perhaps expected. Whether GM expected it or not is a different story. We're not personally attacking your car, invalidating your purchase, or saying people don't appreciate it.

C5 and C6 are also designations for generations of the Corvette. It bothers some people when you use these terms for the Camaro. :P

[68fbjjz109]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Well Toyota and Honda and Hyundai are all building their high volume entries in the U.S.. Only Hyundai is about to open a plant for Kia in Mexico. It is tougher when every car still carries the burden of a $40,000 per year pension for every assembly worker after 30 years. That is why the Japanese and Korean companies can make money building here. GM still supports over 1,000,000 retirees last I knew. You do the math on that one on a per car basis.

Exactly, and they are building cars in the South... I just got a quote for tooling here in the Detroit Metro area from a Tier 1. Much more expensive for comparable services than a company our client is looking at in Alabama.

The Camaro/6GC is now built in Lansing.

Toyota benefits are scaled once you retire, coupled with they are a boring OEM. They also are very slow and deliberate with platforms, and their vested in evolution not revolutions. That's how you make money though. Ford is very Toyota like outside the Mustang. But cost is king, they are very sensitive to it, and content was pulled from it to keep the S550 within funding.

I see alot of 6GC here in the Detroit metro area, heck I knew there was 4 banger coming for along time. My coworkers SO does validation for it. They where still very sensitive to information about it when they brought it home in spite it being common knowledge. So I think there there is some pressure for it to do well. Will see how much that changes things. That being said, it's still to early to draw any definitive conclusions. 2017 will be a much better indication.

I personally like the 6GC trying to get my friend who works for GM to get a 1LE. I need a 1LE driving buddy in my life. And i haven't driven the SS yet. One of our clients has two 6GC's in the test fleet. Most people really like the driving dynamics of the car (2SS). This being said the cost, and styling are two things that continually come up with it.

You get way more content/features in a Challenger or Charger for the price, you also get Chrysler specs and therefore weight.

I am very fond of the 6GM especially from a styling perspective, enough so that I bought one in spite the fact I could have gotten better deals in terms or percent off on a Challenger or 6GC via industry connections. I still bought the 6GM (it's also the devil I know)

I am not sure what the average age for crowd is here, but the 6GM crowd is pretty young in comparison. Aside from when the 6GM program was funded, I think the price point was something they worked hard on for the future of the brand, and their strategy in terms of sales and show of force in the performance realm seems to be working.

[6th Gen SS]

Originally Posted by merlin803

Exactly, it is mind boggling... if I had a dollar for every time I saw that stang commercial & the lady with the micropone...lol






I know I would be drooling if I ever saw a 6th Gen commercial touting it's upgrades and the accolades that it has earned already, with a stang in it's rear view mirror, lol.

Me too

[merlin803]

Speak of the devil, sitting here watching a recording of Legends of Tomorrow and wouldn't you know it, back to back Mustang commercials...including one with some of the stars driving one.

Maybe one day GM will put a little effort, or any effort at all, into their advertisement of the Gen 6.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by RenegadeXR

You probably know the internal process better than I for green-lighting these kind of things, but we already know via spy photos that the 1LE and ZL1 were being developed before the 6th gen officially began to hit dealerships around October / November 2015. I would imagine a not insignificant amount of money was already spent on research and development at this point. For them to cancel these cars at the last second may also have a trickle-down effect on buyer confidence for the car overall, which sounds like is mainly selling to enthusiasts at this point. I'm also not sure what costs are involved in tooling and production, but they probably aren't as high as building a completely new car.

Where I struggle is not in thinking about whether the 1LE, ZLE, and Z/28 are coming out in the short term, where I struggle is seeing the long term strategy to give the car the same 6 year production life as the 5th gen while keeping sales volume high enough to justify continued production and investment into year-to-year improvements. I would bet this car is going to have a shorter production run, especially if Ford does follow through with plans to launch a new generation of Mustang in 2020. If and when that does happen, I don't see how they are going to respond unless they redefine the segment a bit -- make the Corvette akin to a Ford GT in performance and have the Camaro fill the role the Corvette used to have in terms of a specific performance/cost tier. As farfetched as that sounds, they might even be a smart long term strategy considering that the automotive industry is on the cusp of radical changes beyond what we've seen in decades as EVs and autonomous cars gain traction in the next 10 years. The buyer segment for cars like the v6 Camaro specifically may shrink in that sort of climate. It could even save the Camaro if they took this path, making it a purebred enthusiast car. If Chevy is thinking ahead enough to invest in thinks like the Bolt and even help catalyze that sort of future, maybe they are quietly thinking about these changes and how they will impact all their current offerings. Food for thought.

Know one thing, they are already thinking about the Gen8 Corvette and Gen7 Camaro. What they will be will change and morph over time as they get closer to reality. It's a 4 plus year journey to get an all new car on the road so if they want a 5 year cycle for the Gen6 Camaro then GM will start the Gen7 just about when the 2017s hit the showroom.

GM's biggest problem in the past was trying to fight for space for Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Saturn. This isn't fully fixed as GM still has Opel, Vauxhall, Holden and several Chinese only brands but it now shows up as GM hammering Chevrolet dealerships with an onslaught of new products. But on that same note Buick is languishing now. So we'll see, but it's apparent they are investing heavily on new product and if for some reason the Camaro were a bust, and it's not, GM would react accordingly as they seem to have the money to do so right now. Look at the Malibu. It was a bust from day one and had a 3 year or so model run.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Number 3

GM can fix price with rebates. I can assure you if the car was not selling well in GM's eyes you would see $$ on the hood. There isn't any yet. You'd see employee specials. There aren't any yet.

GM can't fix the BA styling, visibility, trunk space, rear seat room. And if those are the reasons the car isn't selling to a broader audience then it will be a while before Camaro can outsell Mustang.

My belief is GM convinced themselves this was a good safe choice. In the long run it may pay off.

For now, just enjoy the car and enjoy what's coming in the next 8 months or so.

I've accepted the car won't outsell the Mustang any time soon.

I agree with all of the above. The complaint among enthusiasts, and would-not-be buyers is that the car is too expensive, and therefore not selling "well". "Well" for us...is more than Mustang. "Well" for the company is profit targets.

If the car was not selling well as far as the company is concerned, GM's not stupid, they'd do something...anything with incentives...and they haven't done that. So sales must be fine as far as they're concerned. Or...perhaps they're waiting it out a bit before a knee-jerk reaction...

It could also be that with impending CAFE laws...they don't want to sell as many cars...the company has to leverage the CTS, ATS, Corvette, Camaro, and all their variants with crappy fuel economy against the rest of the company to get the average up. So...move the Camaro upmarket to become a four-seat Corvette rather than the "poor man's Corvette"? (Let's face it, performance is remarkably close, and the interiors are on-par with each other) Lower volume means a better average, and maybe that's what they're going for? Totally a left-field guess, on my part...

Originally Posted by mkorgan

I went to look at a new Camaro with my wife a couple weeks ago after being talked into it by a friend of mine who bought a new SS. I have a Gen5 ZL1 and would not trade it for anything in the world so I was just "window shopping". My wife summed up what I believe is the issue here. She said, "What is the difference between this and what Mark has?". Mark has a Gen5 Camaro SS. My wife, who has been through more Camaros with me than we can count and is very much a car person, could not tell the difference in the Gen5/Gen6 SS at first glance. Now after spending 15 minutes going around the car, she recognized the rear and front fascia difference and obviously the inside improvements BUT she walked away saying, "It would have to be more than that for me to get out of my Gen5 SS if I was Mark." Now I know this is one person and you guys will probably say she is just ignorant of the true improvements in the car but if this is 50%+ of your buying public...I think it is indicative of the #'s you see in sales.

I can understand the visual confusions, but I wonder if her impression would be the same after a drive?

Originally Posted by RenegadeXR

You probably know the internal process better than I for green-lighting these kind of things, but we already know via spy photos that the 1LE and ZL1 were being developed before the 6th gen officially began to hit dealerships around October / November 2015. I would imagine a not insignificant amount of money was already spent on research and development at this point. For them to cancel these cars at the last second may also have a trickle-down effect on buyer confidence for the car overall, which sounds like is mainly selling to enthusiasts at this point. I'm also not sure what costs are involved in tooling and production, but they probably aren't as high as building a completely new car.

Last generation, they were fighting two big factors: Bankruptcy and no $$ put every new car on hold...some, like the performance cars, were held for longer than others. And the Camaro brand's identity was in total flux. Cars needed intermittent approval as Al, Cheryl and team came up with ideas.

For example, the 2012 ZL1 was originally going to be called Z/28 up until the last second. The 1LE was never planned at all...rather, a skunkworks car that happened in the dark during ZL1 development. The Z/28 came after all that...as a result of increased confidence in the car thanks to the ZL1 and 1LE.

Now they've got it down: LT, SS, 1LE, ZL1, Z/28. That is Camaro.

All 5 of these variants were planned and approved from Day 1. Name, equipment, performance, appearance and price "target". That results in a very quick turnaround time, and according to Camaro team...they didn't want to artificially hold them back if they're tested and ready.