[ADM PERFORMANCE]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

Why would you waste time with an inferior forced induction system (positive displacement), and worse, recommend them to Camaro owners, when superior twin turbo and centrifugal systems are/will be available?

The OEMs use front mount twin turbos because they are universally accepted as the best/only choice for forced induction. The ONLY reason GM uses a TVS positive displacement superchargers is because they are CHEAP.
Not to mention, the $1M+ ZR1 prototype had twin turbos. But, the prototype burned to the ground due to a fire caused by the twin turbo system. LOW COST is the ONLY reason GM chose the TVS. Don't even get me started on the heat, heat soak, and failure rates of positive displacement superchargers.

Regardless, a centrifugal is just one large "turbo" that is spun by an accessory belt instead of exhaust gasses. Centris are simple, reliable, relatively inexpensive, and the way centri's build boost is perfect for our engines, especially on the street.

I could talk about this subject for weeks. But, the bottom line is that positive displacement blowers shouldn't even be a consideration with the other options.

Front Mount twin turbos for a MAX power if you're willing to deal with the MAX expense and complexity.
ECS Centrifugal supercharger for everyone else.


FYI: the only other TVS positive displacement supercharger used by an OEM was on Audi's 3.0L V6, and Audi dumped the TVS for front mount twin turbos. Audi's "experiment" with the TVS blower was "one and done."

Because it works in my business, Extremely well

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

Not here to argue, Just here to inform.

We all can see clearer now.

Thanks
Andy
Owner

[Fenriel]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

Why would you waste time with an inferior forced induction system (positive displacement), and worse, recommend them to Camaro owners, when superior twin turbo and centrifugal systems are/will be available?

The OEMs use front mount twin turbos because they are universally accepted as the best/only choice for forced induction. The ONLY reason GM uses a TVS positive displacement superchargers is because they are CHEAP.
Not to mention, the $1M+ ZR1 prototype had twin turbos. But, the prototype burned to the ground due to a fire caused by the twin turbo system. LOW COST is the ONLY reason GM chose the TVS. Don't even get me started on the heat, heat soak, and failure rates of positive displacement superchargers.

Regardless, a centrifugal is just one large "turbo" that is spun by an accessory belt instead of exhaust gasses. Centris are simple, reliable, relatively inexpensive, and the way centri's build boost is perfect for our engines, especially on the street.

I could talk about this subject for weeks. But, the bottom line is that positive displacement blowers shouldn't even be a consideration with the other options.

Front Mount twin turbos for a MAX power if you're willing to deal with the MAX expense and complexity.
ECS Centrifugal supercharger for everyone else.


FYI: the only other TVS positive displacement supercharger used by an OEM was on Audi's 3.0L V6, and Audi dumped the TVS for front mount twin turbos. Audi's "experiment" with the TVS blower was "one and done."

I'll agree with you on the point that twin turbo set up is superior in numerous ways (Powerband, easy to turn up boost, doesn't use power to make power ect...) but honestly these supercharges have advantages as well. For me the biggest is the efficient use of space. If you look and ADM's and magnuson's set up it's nice and clean not to much clutter or piping, and I personally really like that. not to mention you have to start really thinking about usable power. I mean once you pass 600 rwhp your going to have some issues with traction, and of course starting to have to replace parts. Finally although I know this doesn't apply to everyone but, most of those TT kits are not going to have a CARB number and for those of us in CA that's not an option.

PS: i know that my points don't really apply to Centi-Blowers

[JoeAyalaM]

PD Superchargers are certainly more modern than Centri's as per development date, and they deliver power diferently.

A PD SC can be more usable in the street, since many Centri SCD cars do no deliver as much power at lower and mid RPM's in short runs or passes there may be not enough space for the Centri SC to deliver it's best. Although I believe larger Centris can be better at maintained high RPM's duties, as for Drag Racing.

So, there is a market for everyone.

On another note, OEM PD SC have been used in applications other than FORD/CHEVROLET/DODGE's and the Audi/VW 3.0L VR6. I can mention the Mercedes Inline 4 used in their small convertible a few years ago, Audi/VW wonderfull 1.4L Inline 4 PD SC and Turbocharged, and most recently VOLVO's 2.0L Inline 4 also PD SC and Turbocharged. Try filing the turbo lag with a Centri SC, it just won´t do.

[JDP Sales]

We are just wrapping up the street tuning on our 16 Heartbeat install. It is a MONSTER. We made 530 RWHP and 588 RWTQ. Thats a gain of 146 RWHP and 186 RWTQ. Best part is the power is available IMMEDIATELY! If your car is a Daily Driver, I don't think you can do better than the Maggie Heartbeat. Its a 2.3 blower too!

In the spirit of full disclosure, this car made that power with ARH longtubes w/cats and a VMax ported throttle body. These cars are ridiculously quick with the 8-speed and this much power!

I'd highly recommend you researching this option. Feel free to call, email or PM with any questions.

All the best,

Jared Royce
801.545.4215

[cc-rider]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

Why would you waste time with an inferior forced induction system (positive displacement), and worse, recommend them to Camaro owners, when superior twin turbo and centrifugal systems are/will be available?

The OEMs use front mount twin turbos because they are universally accepted as the best/only choice for forced induction. The ONLY reason GM uses a TVS positive displacement superchargers is because they are CHEAP.
Not to mention, the $1M+ ZR1 prototype had twin turbos. But, the prototype burned to the ground due to a fire caused by the twin turbo system. LOW COST is the ONLY reason GM chose the TVS. Don't even get me started on the heat, heat soak, and failure rates of positive displacement superchargers.

Regardless, a centrifugal is just one large "turbo" that is spun by an accessory belt instead of exhaust gasses. Centris are simple, reliable, relatively inexpensive, and the way centri's build boost is perfect for our engines, especially on the street.

I could talk about this subject for weeks. But, the bottom line is that positive displacement blowers shouldn't even be a consideration with the other options.

Front Mount twin turbos for a MAX power if you're willing to deal with the MAX expense and complexity.
ECS Centrifugal supercharger for everyone else.


FYI: the only other TVS positive displacement supercharger used by an OEM was on Audi's 3.0L V6, and Audi dumped the TVS for front mount twin turbos. Audi's "experiment" with the TVS blower was "one and done."

What a misinformed and arrogant post. Perhaps you should tell the hundreds of thousands of PD supercharger owners out there how stupid they are. There's giving your opinion...and then there's being an ass.

You like centri's. We get it. But all the forced induction systems have their place, their strong points, and their weak points. Since you trashed PD superchargers...lets talk about them. There is not a single other FI system out there capable of producing the instant boost hit of a PD supercharger. It makes any LS engine feel like its a 500 ci big block. I love PD chargers. So do many else.

And here is where I will not be like you and go into trashing centri's and turbo's just because I like PD superchargers. Because I like them all. Centri's build nice linear power when boost comes up and are capable of huge top end power. Turbo's product massive amounts of mid range torque and will no doubt beat out both centri's and PD for peak dyno numbers (though that doesn't always translate to the street or track).

[cc-rider]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

How many OEM PD blown vehicles?
How many OEM twin turbo vehicles?
How many Kenne Bells sold to the LSx community as compared to centris over the last 20 years?

That's because front mount twin turbos are the ultimate FI.
PD blowers are only chosen because they are cheap, and very profitable for OEMs and tuners.
As far as Kenne Bell and PDs in the LSX aftermarket, the numbers speak for themselves.



What's the highest selling, and highest performing aftermarket FI for V8s?

It's been centrifugals for a long time. If you own, build, or even know about these cars, you'll know why. I'm not going to waste hours of my life arguing with strangers on the interenet about widely known FI basics.


For the record, I like twin turbos. They are the ultimate for a MAX performance, MAX $ builds.
But, after many, many builds in my life, I choose centrifugals like most experienced car guys do, for the obvious reasons.

Now, who's misinformed? Because it sure isn't me.
Arrogant? After all the time and money spent, maybe. I earned it.
Frankly, I don't have to kiss anyone's rectum here, because I'm not selling anything. I save the rectum smooching for my clients and business partners these days.



Good luck with your next build. Hopefully you'll do your homework and make the right decisions.

Good lord. Are you ever misinformed. Go look at the Camaro5 forums and see how many PD superchargers are on the LS3's and L99's as compared to every other option. I bet its 3:1 minimum.

You mention OEM use. Hmmmmm...lets see. How about the ZL1 Camaro, Z06 Corvette, CTS-V, the new 2017 ZL1 Camaro. Remind me again...are they running centri or PD supercharger????

The PD supercharger has it place in history, current, and future of engine building. As does centri and turbo. This is where you go way wrong here. There is nothing wrong with personally liking centris. They are a fantastic option. But to trash the other options simply because its not your personal choice is stupid. Simple as that.

I enjoy my Kenne Bell immensely. I don't need my decisions validated by what everyone else is deciding for their power adder. I surely don't need my decision validated by a misinformed person like you.

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

I have owned, built,designed more turbo systems and supercharger systems my way than any vendor on this forum(Next to Lingenfelter whom I worked for) and have had first hand experience for 3 decades now...Yes Im older now!

In 2009-2010 we built -
Using a positive displacement supercharger


In 2010 we built - http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95471
Using a Vortech YSI (Centri for slang) -


In 2010-2011 - we built - http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169185
Using 2 very front mounted turbos.

Than in 2011 we built - 427 n/a then Whipple
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130630


And to top it off
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283673

The best of the best for all around performance - 2013 ZL1 Brand new 427 Twin turbo,The worlds first ZL1 to break 200mph in a standing mile(Not a 5mile run like Hennessey)


But at the end of the day -

My customers,my self,90 percent of the vendors on this site that pay monthly fees to advertise here will all agree that the Positive displacement superchargeris the best street power adder that exist hands down.


On a side note - worlds fastest 5th gen at texas mile - Positive displacement supercharger

Worlds fastest Cadillac CTSV - ADM Performance using a Magnusun 2.3 liter Heartbeat on a 427.

I have nothing against turbos,Nothing against N/A ,Nothing against Positive Displacement.....They all work !

[bpang1234]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

FYI: the only other TVS positive displacement supercharger used by an OEM was on Audi's 3.0L V6, and Audi dumped the TVS for front mount twin turbos. Audi's "experiment" with the TVS blower was "one and done."

Long post is super long for me and most of it goes over my head.

As one of the thousands of people that has the Audi TFSI 3.0 V6, I will tell you that it is awesome and superior compared to the BMW version because it has ZERO LAG. After driving numerous turbocharged vehicles, it is a big deal to me and one of the main reasons why I got this current car (Audi S4) and now moving back over to a V8 2SS.

Waiting for the turbos to spool gets old really quickly in a daily driver or on a tight course. Obviously, numbers alone, the Turbos will generate more power especially at their peaks. But getting them to spool takes a second or two.

I'd also note that yes, it was a single motor but they put it in almost all their cars other than the small ones (A3/S3, TT/TT-S and Q3) or the R8. It was universally loved by magazine writers, bloggers and customers. Ultimately, the move to the Turbo V6 is less about the driving dynamics or horsepower but more about MPGs (since, yes, turbos are easier to make efficient).

[Atra]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

I call BS on absolutely everything you posted above.
The short quote above is the most hilarious.

EVERY professional engineer or tuner is going to agree with the following:
Front Mount Twin Turbos >>> Centrifugal Superchargers >>>>>>>>>>>> Positive Displacement Superchargers.

LPE was charging $30k for twin turbo system, when they were doing a PD supercharger system for $10k. So, your PD argument is a joke. I've had this conversation face to face with Graham at LPE almost 20 years ago when John was still alive, and he was far above you at LPE as the Chief Engineer.
I, and many other on here, were building FI cars in the early 1990s, so your resume is quite short compared to ours.

I stand by my statements.
PD blowers are only chosen because they are cheap.
If you're going to do an aftermarket FI system, do a front mount twin turbo or a centrifugal supercharger system depending on your budget and horsepower goals.

The bit about the price difference could def be explained by labor and parts dont you think? Also why are you measuring dicks-both of you?

[E-Ray]

[IMG][/IMG]

[cc-rider]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

I call BS on absolutely everything you posted above.
The short quote above is the most hilarious.

EVERY professional engineer or tuner is going to agree with the following:
Front Mount Twin Turbos >>> Centrifugal Superchargers >>>>>>>>>>>> Positive Displacement Superchargers.

LPE was charging $30k for twin turbo system, when they were doing a PD supercharger system for $10k. So, your PD argument is a joke. I've had this conversation face to face with Graham at LPE almost 20 years ago when John was still alive, and he was far above you at LPE as the Chief Engineer.
I, and many other on here, were building FI cars in the early 1990s, so your resume is quite short compared to ours.

I stand by my statements.
PD blowers are only chosen because they are cheap.
If you're going to do an aftermarket FI system, do a front mount twin turbo or a centrifugal supercharger system depending on your budget and horsepower goals.

You've got to be one of the biggest idiots I've come across on a forum in a long time. ADM has probably forgotten more about engine building than you've ever known. He just laid it all out for you. Why do you continue to ram your flawed thoughts down everyone's throat here?

Who are you anyway? Are you a troll here for a turbo or centri company??? You have some agenda here that your're not being forthcoming on. Or you're just an idiot. Probably the latter. But who knows.

[JoeAyalaM]

Since when are PD s cheaper than Centris?

Please post vendors data.

[BlkReaper]

Originally Posted by RobertAvitia

Procharger has a belt driven turbo

turbos are driven by exhaust
superchargers are belt driven