[hotlap]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

Cranky old man here but I am not buying the.. "there was actually a segment of buyers that would not buy the fifth-gen because we did not have a 2.0-liter turbo". Give them the Cobalt and let them go play with the Ford Focus. I have been around a long time and I can tell you I have never been in the shop or at the track and heard, man...if they would have just put a 2.0T in that Camaro that run did not get under 5.0 to 60. Then....then I would have bought one." WHO SAYS THAT? It is not going to be any cheaper than the v6. If for some reason you have to have a turbo, through one on the v6. Help me here folks. Please, I am not trying to be sarcastic. I need to know why this car would appeal to anyone.

My nephew has a E85 tuned turbo 4 import and I just hired a young engineer that is into them exclusively. My nephew wants to upgrade to a new 2SS and is saving his $$$$. That late 20s engineer is only interested in building 10-11 sec turbo cars.

[titanfan]

Funny how things change. Just not that long ago, Al was talking about how Chevrolet would not follow Ford [by offering a 4-cylinder in the 6thGen Camaro) and stating something along the lines of "as long as I am chief engineer, I will fight to have the most cylinders as possible in the Camaro." Now it looks like he's become one of the biggest cheerleaders of the turbo-4 in the car. I guess ihe lost that battle. It just goes to show everyone has a boss and, no matter your personal opinions, you toe the company line.

Originally Posted by mkorgan

Cranky old man here but I am not buying the.. "there was actually a segment of buyers that would not buy the fifth-gen because we did not have a 2.0-liter turbo". Give them the Cobalt and let them go play with the Ford Focus. I have been around a long time and I can tell you I have never been in the shop or at the track and heard, man...if they would have just put a 2.0T in that Camaro that run did not get under 5.0 to 60. Then....then I would have bought one." WHO SAYS THAT? It is not going to be any cheaper than the v6. If for some reason you have to have a turbo, through one on the v6. Help me here folks. Please, I am not trying to be sarcastic. I need to know why this car would appeal to anyone.

Look, I'm in my forties, and while I would not personally look to buy a turbo-four Mustang or Camaro as long as there are V8 options available, you cannot deny that there is a segment of buyers of those cars that want that powertrain. GM cannot afford to alienate itself from that segment, as it is actually growing and since future regulations will force manufacturers to grow more efficient fleets, those types of offering will become the norm.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

It's hard to interpret the there are no limitations statement.

I read it as a statement about cost...

Originally Posted by mkorgan

Cranky old man here but I am not buying the.. "there was actually a segment of buyers that would not buy the fifth-gen because we did not have a 2.0-liter turbo". Give them the Cobalt and let them go play with the Ford Focus. I have been around a long time and I can tell you I have never been in the shop or at the track and heard, man...if they would have just put a 2.0T in that Camaro that run did not get under 5.0 to 60. Then....then I would have bought one." WHO SAYS THAT? It is not going to be any cheaper than the v6. If for some reason you have to have a turbo, through one on the v6. Help me here folks. Please, I am not trying to be sarcastic. I need to know why this car would appeal to anyone.

Originally Posted by titanfan

Funny how things change. Just not that long ago, Al was talking about how Chevrolet would not follow Ford [by offering a 4-cylinder in the 6thGen Camaro) and stating something along the lines of "as long as I am chief engineer, I will fight to have the most cylinders as possible in the Camaro." Now it looks like he's become one of the biggest cheerleaders of the turbo-4 in the car. I guess ihe lost that battle. It just goes to show everyone has a boss and, no matter your personal opinions, you toe the company line.

A while back, there was much ado about a 4-cylinder 5th gen. Supposedly, they fitted one, but it didn't make any sense from a cost/performance/efficiency perspective because Zeta was too heavy to make any use of it, so it never happened.

Slightly later, a foolish automotive journalist interviewed Al "off the record", and then twisted some words around to make it sound like he said "I'll never let a 4 cylinder into the car" or something like that...He never said that.

Later than that...he did say that he would always fight as hard as he could to have a V8 available in the car. There's a difference between that; and "no four cylinder".

Fact is, they've known that they have lost buyers from the "tuner" crowd to the Subaru BRZ and Genesis coupe-type cars...because just like there's a reputation of the V8 amongst the old-school enthusiasts, and the automotive community at large, there's also a reputation and "cool factor" of a performance turbo 4 among the tuner crowd. But it's a little different...I don't know if it's a cost/affordability thing, but the V8 is out of the running with these people, and the V6 "isn't cool". The turbo engine is.

They've been evaluating this issue for years. It's not going to double the sales of the car, but they do feel that in addition to increasing the efficiency, offering a turbo 4 will pave the way for a new type of buyer who sees nothing appealing offered from Chevrolet. You don't need to believe it if you don't want to...but this a real thing.

As far as bosses and towing the line...he really does like the 4. Says its a lot of fun to drive. They're doing a media drive for the four cylinder mid-march, and I can't wait to get my butt in one. The car weighs about as much as a Stingray, just has less power...so if not "fast", it should feel nimble as all get-out.

There will be tuned four-cylinders that outrun SSs and maybe even ZL1s at the drag strip in the next few years...mark my words.

[bballr4567]

Yup, Al basically said that he will fight for every cylinder and every horsepower that he can. That ended up getting twisted to no T4.


Honestly, the sales of the "tuner" crowd are nothing impressive. V8 guys EASILY blow them away. Go look at the sales of the GTI, Focus ST and Toyobaru twins. Not good. I think last year the ST around 14k cars globally. The twins are struggling to sell 2k a month combined. It just isnt a huge market.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by bballr4567

Honestly, the sales of the "tuner" crowd are nothing impressive. V8 guys EASILY blow them away. Go look at the sales of the GTI, Focus ST and Toyobaru twins. Not good. I think last year the ST around 14k cars globally. The twins are struggling to sell 2k a month combined. It just isnt a huge market.

True. I did notice the twin cars sales were awful. Those cars also offer no horsepower, extensive options, or "real" performance for a lot of dollars....They're also Miata-like tiny...and the interiors are shoddy (tons of rattles and loose fit).

That said...even if they only sell 1000 additional cars...that's 1000 new cars to sell.

[titanfan]

Originally Posted by bballr4567

Yup, Al basically said that he will fight for every cylinder and every horsepower that he can. That ended up getting twisted to no T4.


Honestly, the sales of the "tuner" crowd are nothing impressive. V8 guys EASILY blow them away. Go look at the sales of the GTI, Focus ST and Toyobaru twins. Not good. I think last year the ST around 14k cars globally. The twins are struggling to sell 2k a month combined. It just isnt a huge market.

Yeah, the spin-doctors on both sides did a great job of taking what Al actually said and making it fit their narrative. Welcome to marketing 101.

The market for the 1LE package is equally small, if not smaller, but it's not stopping team Camaro from offering it. Small displacement, forced-induction engines ARE the future. That is, unless somehow government regulation is scaled back and federally-mandated CAFE standards are eliminated.

[bballr4567]

Originally Posted by titanfan

Yeah, the spin-doctors on both sides did a great job of taking what Al actually said and making it fit their narrative. Welcome to marketing 101.

The market for the 1LE package is equally small, if not smaller, but it's not stopping team Camaro from offering it. Small displacement, forced-induction engines ARE the future. That is, unless somehow government regulation is scaled back and federally-mandated CAFE standards are eliminated.

1LE is completely different. It's MAYBE adding in a few dollars to get a good return, plus, GM has sold literally everyone they've made.

People have been saying that forced induction engines are the future for about 20 years now. Yet, we have a V8 that is the most fuel efficient engine in the 6th gen.

[90503]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

Cranky old man here but I am not buying the.. "there was actually a segment of buyers that would not buy the fifth-gen because we did not have a 2.0-liter turbo". Give them the Cobalt and let them go play with the Ford Focus. I have been around a long time and I can tell you I have never been in the shop or at the track and heard, man...if they would have just put a 2.0T in that Camaro that run did not get under 5.0 to 60. Then....then I would have bought one." WHO SAYS THAT? It is not going to be any cheaper than the v6. If for some reason you have to have a turbo, through one on the v6. Help me here folks. Please, I am not trying to be sarcastic. I need to know why this car would appeal to anyone.

Believe me, you are only scratching the surface....If you really delve into the issue, it will make your head spin and your stomach turn....and it's not a pretty picture at all. I doubt anyone will agree, and for simplistic reasons it will sound outrageous, but I'm telling you this: Young people will only buy 4cyl, tuner-type cars for many seemingly irrational reasons...

Anything big V-8 (even V-6) engines are perceived as an "American" car, a racist, homophobic purchase of old-school technology....The 4 cyl turbo is global, saves the planet, is trendy...American cars and "gas-guzzlers" are hated by college professors. Young people are peer-pressured into avoiding anything patriotic or that contributes to global-warming....Some Sororities and Fraternities will not associate or "date" (if you get my drift) anyone who owns a gas-guzzler, especially one American made.

I'm not trying to rant about politics, just highlighting a huge school of thought that has gone unchallenged and allowed to fester for many years. Young people are mostly unfamiliar, and unwilling to learn or care about the performance and benefits of a V-8 or V-6. It's a Turbo-4 tuner, or nothing.

Al O. and GM are putting the reasons mildly and in a positive spin. But they are absolutely correct there is a large segment that will only buy a T-4....but there's more to the reasoning of why that is. More like the entire future of GM and passenger cars for the general public will soon not even include a V-8...

Sorry, I had to put it out there, flame away and/or delete it if you see fit...It certainly won't apply to all turbo-4 enthusiasts....but it will to a significant amount, for sure...Mark my words, once the 4banger forums get rolling....You'll see what I mean.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by 90503

Believe me, you are only scratching the surface....If you really delve into the issue, it will make your head spin and your stomach turn....and it's not a pretty picture at all. I doubt anyone will agree, and for simplistic reasons it will sound outrageous, but I'm telling you this: Young people will only buy 4cyl, tuner-type cars for many seemingly irrational reasons...

Anything big V-8 (even V-6) engines are perceived as an "American" car, a racist, homophobic purchase of old-school technology....The 4 cyl turbo is global, saves the planet, is trendy...American cars and "gas-guzzlers" are hated by college professors. Young people are peer-pressured into avoiding anything patriotic or that contributes to global-warming....Some Sororities and Fraternities will not associate or "date" (if you get my drift) anyone who owns a gas-guzzler, especially one American made.

I'm not trying to rant about politics, just highlighting a huge school of thought that has gone unchallenged and allowed to fester for many years. Young people are mostly unfamiliar, and unwilling to learn or care about the performance and benefits of a V-8 or V-6. It's a Turbo-4 tuner, or nothing.

Al O. and GM are putting the reasons mildly and in a positive spin. But there's more to it. More like the entire future of GM and passenger cars for the general public will soon not even include a V-8...

Sorry, I had to put it out there, flame away and/or delete it if you see fit...It certainly won't apply to all turbo-4 enthusiasts....but it will to a significant amount, for sure...Mark my words, once the 4banger forums get rolling....You'll see what I mean.

This is one of the reasons I have moved away from BMW. You cannot get a naturally aspirated new BMW no matter what you spend. Don't get me wrong, most of the cars I've owned have been turbo and most have been 4 cylinder. However that was only because I didn't know any better. Once I got my first NA inline 6 BMW it all changed and I have not looked back.

I think the main reason younger kids like the turbo 4 cylinders is because you can make easy power with just a tune. You can easily take a 200hp car to 300hp with nothing but a $500 tune.

[mkorgan]

I had no idea I would get this much response to my question. I am not here to argue as I just don't see a need to do that but I do have a couple things to say:

1) The average import 2.0T is almost a 1000lbs lights than the Camaro (Subaru for example) - If you are going to tune a 2.0T, this is the platform you want to play with simply due to weight if nothing else.

2) The old saying "There is no replacement for displacement" is still TRUE. The more CI you have, the more power you can make. Put the same turbo on a 6/8 cylinder car...you get more power than a similar boosted 4cyl.

Originally Posted by 90503

Believe me, you are only scratching the surface....If you really delve into the issue, it will make your head spin and your stomach turn....and it's not a pretty picture at all. I doubt anyone will agree, and for simplistic reasons it will sound outrageous, but I'm telling you this: Young people will only buy 4cyl, tuner-type cars for many seemingly irrational reasons...

Anything big V-8 (even V-6) engines are perceived as an "American" car, a racist, homophobic purchase of old-school technology....The 4 cyl turbo is global, saves the planet, is trendy...American cars and "gas-guzzlers" are hated by college professors. Young people are peer-pressured into avoiding anything patriotic or that contributes to global-warming....Some Sororities and Fraternities will not associate or "date" (if you get my drift) anyone who owns a gas-guzzler, especially one American made.

I'm not trying to rant about politics, just highlighting a huge school of thought that has gone unchallenged and allowed to fester for many years. Young people are mostly unfamiliar, and unwilling to learn or care about the performance and benefits of a V-8 or V-6. It's a Turbo-4 tuner, or nothing.

Al O. and GM are putting the reasons mildly and in a positive spin. But they are absolutely correct there is a large segment that will only buy a T-4....but there's more to the reasoning of why that is. More like the entire future of GM and passenger cars for the general public will soon not even include a V-8...

Sorry, I had to put it out there, flame away and/or delete it if you see fit...It certainly won't apply to all turbo-4 enthusiasts....but it will to a significant amount, for sure...Mark my words, once the 4banger forums get rolling....You'll see what I mean.

Believe it or not, I think this makes the most sense of anything I have read on the topic.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

There will be tuned four-cylinders that outrun SSs and maybe even ZL1s at the drag strip in the next few years...mark my words.

Find me a 800hp 2.0T Camaro and I will admit they have a shot at my outrunning ZL1 with its V8. I have about 9K in my ZL1 and run about 800 RWHP. I will give you 9K to mod a 2.0T, let you pick the track, let you pick the weather, let you pick the lane, let you pick the length of race and I will never see you once I hit the first stage of nitrous. I promise. Most likely will never touch the bottle and still will never see you. The word "you" is not meant to mean you specifically but the person that really thinks a 2.0T Camaro is going to scare anyone that takes the 1/8 or 1/4 mile serious and spends hours upon hours tuning their whole car, not just their motor.

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

My nephew has a E85 tuned turbo 4 import and I just hired a young engineer that is into them exclusively. My nephew wants to upgrade to a new 2SS and is saving his $$$$. That late 20s engineer is only interested in building 10-11 sec turbo cars.

My questions is why??? Start with more, end with more. What is the valor of take 2L motor and killing yourself to get 500hp out of it? Why not start @ 500hp and get 800hp out of it?

There may come a day when regulations demand we approach HP differently but we still can buy large displacement motors at nearly the same cost as small displacement motors and if your goal is power and speed, you simply cannot beat starting with a large platform to generate power, regardless of whether you stay N/A, go FI, or do as I did and throw the bottle on top of your S/C.

Now, I have driven the 2.0T power plants in the imports, and like I said, with a 1K less pounds, they are easy to make quick, not fast but quick. In the Camaro, I just don't see why you go after that market with such a bigger car but I am sure they will sell a bunch....just not to guys who have other options.

[SpeedIsLife]

A T4 Camaro is only going to be 3,400lbs on the upper trim scales...

Show me a 2.0T that is 2,400lbs that isn't a stripped out, rattle box shithouse please..

[KaBoom1701]

I'm all for the 4cyl turbo Camaro....we need the fast and furious crowd buying our cars too.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

I had no idea I would get this much response to my question. I am not here to argue as I just don't see a need to do that but I do have a couple things to say:

1) The average import 2.0T is almost a 1000lbs lights than the Camaro (Subaru for example) - If you are going to tune a 2.0T, this is the platform you want to play with simply due to weight if nothing else.

2) The old saying "There is no replacement for displacement" is still TRUE. The more CI you have, the more power you can make. Put the same turbo on a 6/8 cylinder car...you get more power than a similar boosted 4cyl.



Believe it or not, I think this makes the most sense of anything I have read on the topic.



Find me a 800hp 2.0T Camaro and I will admit they have a shot at my outrunning ZL1 with its V8. I have about 9K in my ZL1 and run about 800 RWHP. I will give you 9K to mod a 2.0T, let you pick the track, let you pick the weather, let you pick the lane, let you pick the length of race and I will never see you once I hit the first stage of nitrous. I promise. Most likely will never touch the bottle and still will never see you. The word "you" is not meant to mean you specifically but the person that really thinks a 2.0T Camaro is going to scare anyone that takes the 1/8 or 1/4 mile serious and spends hours upon hours tuning their whole car, not just their motor.




My questions is why??? Start with more, end with more. What is the valor of take 2L motor and killing yourself to get 500hp out of it? Why not start @ 500hp and get 800hp out of it?

There may come a day when regulations demand we approach HP differently but we still can buy large displacement motors at nearly the same cost as small displacement motors and if your goal is power and speed, you simply cannot beat starting with a large platform to generate power, regardless of whether you stay N/A, go FI, or do as I did and throw the bottle on top of your S/C.

Now, I have driven the 2.0T power plants in the imports, and like I said, with a 1K less pounds, they are easy to make quick, not fast but quick. In the Camaro, I just don't see why you go after that market with such a bigger car but I am sure they will sell a bunch....just not to guys who have other options.

The small motor/import tuner crowd sees cars and engines completely different from American V6 and V8 tuners. They see it as a bigger challenge to get increased power from a small motor than from a big one. They almost look at tuning a Detroit motor as "too easy" and for "lazy people". I've known a few import tuners. They'll go crazy for the 2.0T Camaro and won't even look at the V6 or SS.

It's a good business decision for GM to do this. Trust me. It lets us continue to have our SS Camaros.

We really need to thank Al O. for spearheading this plan.

[Tr6]

What a fantastic interview!

Coming from 2.0T vehicles (evos), I think you guys are missing the point somewhat. There is a HUGE market for turbo vehicles, even for domestics. Look up Cobb Tuning, Tune +, MAPerformance, etc... Ecoboost mustang, ST, soon RS, evo's, wrx's, sti's etc and GM want's a piece of that pie! It's a huge growing market and making vehicles = for making money! It's a business....

There are cheaper to purchase for new vs new. A fully fully loaded 2.0T will still be cheaper than a base SS with absolutely nothing on it. Therefor, easier for people to financially afford it. Of course there are pros and cons but that doesn't matter. More people will be able to afford a 2.0T more than they can an SS, it's really simple which nullifies the comment of "just get the v8 and more power etc". To me, it's like saying "you should go get the Venom GT, it's more power". And sorry, I would rather have all my bells and whistles, updated everything over an older car. I won't be buying a 10 year old toy car or even a gen5 camaro just because it has over 1000hp and there people thing exactly like I do.

2.0T world is a completely different one than v8s. Two different beasts. Everything is different, driving characteristics, power delivery, DD ability etc... Did I love my 425 to all wheels on my evos? Hell yeah I did. Do I love my 2SS? Hell yeah I do. I do prefer my 2SS over any other cars I have owned sure due to all the bells and whistles, LT1, comfort and quality but it also cost slightly more purchase price (43k fully loaded vs 46.5) and it is ridiculously cheap to gain power with the V8 but not numbers wise. Spending 3k on the v8 vs 3k on a 2.0T you will gain hell of a lot more power on the 2.0T. Most likely will only match SS power levels from the 2.0T BUT, 2.0T will STILL be CHEAPER overall compared.