[6spdhyperblue]

excellent, thanks for those sources.

[Gen_Nick3.8]

Mr. Wyndham thank you for taking the time and writing that. That should end the discussion. Whatever GM has in store the 1LE will handle amazing whatever it has.

[Kevlar382]

They are all really nice cars. You just have to buy the one that fits your needs but for me if the 1LE doesn't have Mag Ride it would be hard to get it over the SS with it. The C5 1LE is an incredible car but it didn't have to ride better than the SS. The best thing about my ZL1 is the ride. I think as more people drive there C6s with MR, the more they will find how important it is. Hopefully it will be standard on the 1LE.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

You're being just a little hypocritical with your arguments on this one...





I'll do my best to explain it, and then I'll add some relevant quotes and descriptions from a few places I've amassed over the past few years. Forgive the 2nd-grade introduction.

The suspension on a car is designed to literally, suspend a vehicle above the road. Being stiff, and steel, the cars monocoque is incapable of softly absorbing bumps and imperfections in the road surface, so a suspension serves as the buffer between the road surface and the car itself. Any modern suspension will consist of linkages, springs, dampers, and swaybars. A properly-tuned suspension will address ALL of these components in a manner that they work systematically, and each component compliments the other.

The springs do most of the work. They hold the weight of the car, they establish a base balance of stiffness front/vs/rear, and they absorb the mechanical energy of the suspension's movements as a vehicle goes over the road.

The linkages establish in which direction the wheels/tires will move when a suspension compressed. They also allow for adjustment, and careful consideration must be given to the connections between the linkages. A soft rubber bushing will allow for far more uncontrolled movement than a metal or even polyurethane piece. Uncontrolled movements lead to issues like chassis jounce, "wheel hop", the rear end sliding to one side under hard acceleration, and skittering over an imperfect track surface. Any of these problems will undermine the entire suspension system.

The sway bars link the linkages in a vehicle's suspension from side to side. If left to their own devices, the body of the vehicle would roll infinitely, so a sway (or stabilizer) bar is used to link the vehicle's wheels laterally....and allow each side to react to what the other is doing. They also help adjust stiffness and balance front/vs/rear, & form a sort of "moving frame" beneath the vehicle.

However, when folks talk about DSSV (Dynamic Suspensions Spool Valve), or MRC (Magnetic Ride Control), what few realize is that each of these technologies only has to do with the dampers in the suspension system.

Dampers literally...dampen the movement of the springs. If you've ever played with a low-force spring, you'll notice that it moves what seems like forever when jostled, until you grab it, or in some other way forcibly stop the movement. This is because springs are mechanical energy "reservoirs". In the same way that they compress and absorb the energy contained within the movement of the suspension, they must also release this energy. Dampers restrain and control this energy release to prevent (again) uncontrolled suspension movement. Ever see a busted truck of van on the highway bouncing away every time there's a hump in the road? The dampers are bad and the springs are just springing away, up and down and up and down again.

Now, in the case of a "normal" damper...you have shim valves which act like little flaps to restrict the movement of a hydraulic fluid within the shock tube. The movement of fluid is the method that dampers control the spring's movement.

They provide mechanical resistance to movement, much like the closers on a house's storm doors that prevent it from slamming shut. You have control in the compression act of the suspension squeezing together; called bump stiffness...and there's control in the opposite movement of the suspension decompressing called; rebound stiffness. The relationship between these two settings will determine the dynamic (moving) character of a suspension on any vehicle. This is important when going over bumps, accelerating, braking, or entering and exiting a turn. The smaller the valve opening, the more resistance is provides. More expensive dampers can adjust how much resistance they offer by opening or closing the valves.

DSSV dampers take this method of damping to a new level by using an acutely-tunable valve system that is different from the standard shim-style valves. They can design and cut valving ports within just a couple microns of spec. And the shapes of the valves control how the dampers react to bump and rebound. The valve ports in the Z/28 are designed to allow for slightly different rates of fluid flow (different stiffnesses) at different speeds of motion. A more rapid, or violent bounce will be held in stiffer control with DSSV, while a less rapid bump on a city street will not be restricted quite as much. But ultimately, there are two features to DSSV technology that made them appealing to Mark Stielow, the lead engineer responsible for the Z/28's go-fastness...1) They are lighter-weight than the tech-heavy MRC shocks. And 2) They are accurate in tuning, predictable in response, and repeatable in character. Any racer will tell you that consistency is key to improving your lap times. DSSV dampers will act the same way, all the time, every time, no matter what the conditions of the track. But they're infinitely more accurate to tune and design for chassis control than a regular damper. That's what makes them expensive.

Magnetic Ride control takes a wild new approach to damping that is unlike any other damper on the market. Even the mechanically-adjustable ones used by some European marques some years ago. Originally developed in-house when AC Delco was part of General Motors...the dampers don't have any valves. They have restrictive ports that allow fluid to move freely through them. Wrapped around these ports, inside the shock tube, are electromagnetic coils that generate a strong magnetic field when a current is passed through them. Within the shock is not a simple hydraulic fluid, but rather a substance called magnetorheological fluid. This fluid is suspended within a more standard hydraulic fluid - and when exposed to an electromagnetic field...it becomes more viscous. In extreme cases, to the point of being almost solid. Furthermore, it can vary it's viscosity or "thickness" infinitely depending on the intensity of the magnetic field. Think about a fluid that can vary in "stickyness" from that of warm vegetable oil to something more like really really cold molasses!!

Obviously the thicker the fluid, the more it will resist passing through those open "valve" ports in the shock I mentioned earlier. The more intense the magnetic field applied to the coils, the thicker the fluid becomes, resisting flow, and the shock becomes much stiffer. So - by sensing the movement in the suspension components and comparing the motion to what the car "should" be doing with some sophisticated on-board software, the computer adjusts the intensity of the magnetic field 1000 times a second, or every inch of travel at 60 mph, which therefore adjusts the stiffness of the shock. When you or I choose "track" or "tour" modes from the inside of the car - what you're actually doing is selecting a different force-velocity preset for the dampers...biased towards stiffer, or comfort. No matter what mode you're in - they are rapidly, and constantly adjusting stiffness.

Now...why is DSSV better for a track? Because the faster you go, the less accurate Mag Ride becomes. While still impressive...at 120mph, a lot can change in the road in two inches travel (which is the amount of distance the suspension can keep up with). Furthermore...there are no valves, and the fluid is not a normal "clean" hydraulic fluid...which means that any variation in the consistency of the MR fluid right at the port...can vary the bounce/rebound character of the shock. It's not dramatic...but it is a variation. And they cannot tune the MR system with nearly the same level of accuracy that you can tune something like DSSV.

It is VERY, VERY good...In fact, it's a Phenomenal damping system. But it is *NOT* bred for track use. It is designed to allow engineers to develop a track oriented suspension in terms of spring stiffness, stabilizer bars, and linkages...but then use a magic magnetorheological damper to compensate for this stiffness with smoothness and nearly-infinite adjustability. There are, however, more specialized systems (like DSSV) that over specific benefits when developing a car for strict on-track performance.

Now, some in here have suggested adding MR to a specific 1LE-tuned suspension would hinder it's performance...and that's not necessarily true. Remember there are other factors at work in a suspension system. A revised software system for MR, and stiffer springs, roll bars, and more direct linkages from the 1LE package could be quite impressive. However, this (if offered) is more than likely going to be an option, because MR itself is illegal equipment in competitive circles...and this Camaro team would not create a track-focused version of the SS that can't compete in a sanctioned track event due to standard equipment. (This is part of my curiosity regarding Ford's use of the technology on the GT350R...most certainly any one of those cars competing in events is not using a factory suspension.)

Below are some quotes from Mark Stielow, lead engineer on the Z/28, and some excerpts from press releases by GM, and the SAE.

And I though I was verbose

MRC = Phenomenal Range in damping
DSSV = Razor edge tuning with instantaneous response

MRC = State-of-the-Art Street Performance
DSSV = State-of-the-Art Track Performance

Stay tuned. Technology is changing at the most rapid rate in history.

[6spdhyperblue]

What happens if you make a mrc dssv

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Nicul15

What happens if you make a dssv mrc

Fundamentally different technology.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[sycraft]

I am the opposite, want the 1LE, no mag ride. I want to be able to make it better

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

And I though I was verbose

MRC = Phenomenal Range in damping
DSSV = Razor edge tuning with instantaneous response

MRC = State-of-the-Art Street Performance
DSSV = State-of-the-Art Track Performance

Stay tuned. Technology is changing at the most rapid rate in history.

Too true.

I haven't let it rip like that in a long time...feels good to be back on the boards posting about things.

Originally Posted by Nicul15

What happens if you make a mrc dssv

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Fundamentally different technology.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

You can't. DSSV uses precision cut spool valves...Mag Ride uses no valves at all.

Originally Posted by sycraft

I am the opposite, want the 1LE, no mag ride. I want to be able to make it better

Nothing wrong with that!

[oneredry]

All this hype and it could end up being a zl1, heck, we don't even know if its going to be released in the time these rumors are flying around.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by crankaholic

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking. From what I can tell, the car gets pretty stiff in track mode - enough where there is no noticeable body roll at all the the car follows most dips in the road surface. The issue for track enthusiasts is predictability and being able to control each corner individually. If GM provided a Track+ mode with those adjustments, why would you want standard adjustable dampers? I'd go so far as to offer a better constructed MRC damper, billet aluminum, with adjustable coil over springs!

Maybe I'm missing something... but wouldn't someone building a dedicated track car just get the cheapest SS and use aftermarket shocks, springs, anti-roll bars, brakes, etc...? Seems like the most logical choice if adjustability and maximum performance without streetability sacrifice is what you're after.

nope you are not missing anything the faster car is the SS with everything including the AC thorn out. Money saved by not buying factory performance can go a LONG way to buying DIY performance.

Heck last autoX one of the fast cars out there was a 5.0 90s Mustang with Cobra IRS gutted and camber set to something like negative 7 degrees. Forget all the rest of the hype, it is hard to beat light and negative 7 degrees of camber.

[red_riot]

a 1le with DSSV would be amazing. please gm.

[Imp]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Did not know that, so I learned something new today that MRC cannot separate rebound and compression, but that it's more like a single adjustable where it does both at the same time (and probably just 'more' on both). Great info, thank you. Exactly what I was looking for. I've been barking up the wrong tree asking MRC to do what DSSV does.

If the 1LE comes with DSSV, I will be all over that (again, contingent on price). If not, I'd probably just go the with the regular shocks that will be replaced with some Koni DAs (for cone-dodging... autox). It all comes down what they announce next week if I do opt for the 1LE or just pick up an SS in a few weeks.

--kC

[Zxmustang]

Yay a $50k+ camaro....

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Zxmustang

Yay a $40k+ camaro....

There, fixed it for you!