[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by Nicul15

isn't it part of the z51 package? what does that cost these days?

About $5000, last 1LE package was $3500.

[6spdhyperblue]

geez, ok. for 5k it would have to be something to really be on par with the GT350 tp. don't see that happening with eLSD, suspension, and tires.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by huggercamaro21

Go ahead with the long. I can only imagine fan boy reasons.

I was being fairly facetious...but if I must elaborate on nothing...in a few words: After a few experiences with some last-gen Mustangs, I just have no interest or reverence for the car, anymore...I don't care what equipment it wears.

I just can't wrap my head around Ford's game plan. In the case of the base model cars, all the way up to the GT...have they learned nothing? It got bigger and heavier, they're equipped with engines that don't particularly excel, the IRS isn't properly tuned (even though the 2010-2012 Camaro SSs were soft, they were at least composed). The GT might as well be pitted against a Camaro V6 on the track...the SS completely mops the floor with it.

As they unveil their performance lineup, I was at first impressed with the GT350. I thought Ford had finally gotten the message and given their enthusiasts, a car worthy of track performance. After all, they had to endure infinite renditions of the GT500, which just never delivered, the Boss 302 was a gimmicky joke. The Laguna Seca version was pretty good, but then they killed it off prematurely.

It was expensive, sure...but then I realized that all I ever heard about was the GT350R...didn't realize they offered a lower-priced model. As I became intrigued, I learned that they don't include the necessary track-prep equipment on, you have to opt extra. Then you can't get both the interior conveniences and the track stuff - so pick. All this, and you're still spending at least $50,000. Meanwhile, Camaro team has opted to include all the coolers, etc that you need on the SS model. It may not be as fast, but it'll last lap after lap...and this is available at 38,000. They're revealing a 1LE edition, and last gen's success suggests that the 1LE will be at least capable enough to successfully combat a base GT350 on the track. Again, like last generation...for significantly less $$.

If I dig deeper, I see this flat-plane engine as sort of a gimmick in and of itself. Only because, despite the flat-plane crank approach...it's not a game changer at all, like some make it seem. It's cool, potent, sounds good, sure...so? I'd almost say I'd rather have an LS7, which is now, a 10-yr old design...

And then there's the pricing strategy...It's just stupid.

I just don't like the way Ford does things. While I can follow their logic and engineering practices to a degree, I just don't agree with them, philosophically...and I don't get scooped up in all the fanfare that surrounds every one of their bowl movements. I'm glad they're pushing forward - I'll never say I want to see the Mustang go out of business...but geeze.

Besides, I already have my race car set up the way I want it. And I'll be getting a 6th-gen 1LE to start over again on a new, lighter platform that I'm quite enamored with.

So no. I am not interested in driving a GT350. But that's not an insult in itself...I just don't want to. That's my opinion, classify it as "fanboy" if you must. The funny thing about perspective is that everyone has one...and Nobody..is without bias. I simply don't go through the effort to pretend like I'm special in that respect. I believe Camaro's are superior to Mustangs. That doesn't mean I don't have objective metrics to support my claims.

Originally Posted by buck50

Can you ask if the 1LE will incorporate the eLSD used in the C7/Z51 & Z06. I'm guessing it would make a lot of sense and follow in line with what they had done with Z51 package on C7.

Sure thing!

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

It takes a different (non-street racing) sort of mindset to truly understand street driving a fairly serious road course car. In normal driving, 300-ish ft-lbs of torque is more than adequate. In a race or at a track day, you won't be operating way down there (below 3500 in the Voodoo's case) any more than you'd be racing/tracking down below about 2500 rpm in a manual transmission SS.

All it "loses" is instant response to the kind of street challenge we're not supposed to talk about here. Which doesn't mean much to a road course driver anyway.

Norm

You've got to admit...400+ lbs torque at 1500 rpms and the same 400+ lbs up to 4500-5000 is really awesome for scooting around town...

Originally Posted by Nicul15

geez, ok. for 5k it would have to be something to really be on par with the GT350 tp. don't see that happening with eLSD, suspension, and tires.

People didn't expect the 5th generation 1LE package to perform the way it did...but it did. Keep the faith...to date - Camaro Team has never done anything that didn't eclipse some past effort...

[SS 1LE]

^ So much misinformation there, jeez.

First off, "engines that don't excel"? Umm, the Coyote is an awesome engine, then you say the "Boss 302 was a gimickey joke"? It just showed how far behind GM was at that time in chassis engineering on the Camaro and made them get their shit together and make the 1LE and Z28. I get this is a Camaro site, but come on.

Overall the '11-'14 Mustang GT was a much better car then the 5th gen Camaro SS, and I owned both. Gotta give credit where credit is due.

Now, when it comes to the new cars, the tables have turned completely...

[OldJedi]

Unlike Mr. Wyndham, whom I have tremendous respect for, I would like to spend some track time in the GT350 TP. A friend has one along with a 2015 Corvette Z06. He tracks both and some of his observations are interesting. His opinions are that the brakes on the GT350 are actually better than Z06 Stage 1brakes (metal) and his track times are very close to the Z06 times.

I did get a chance to sit in his GT350 with the Recaros. A very different Recaro seat from the Recaros used in the 5th Gen Camaros. It is a much snugger fitting seat than the Camaro Recaro. What I do have to praise Ford with, is the fact that they made Recaros available on the GT350 immediately where Chevy made us wait a few years before they were available on their HiPo Camaros. I hope Chevy learned from this and makes Recaros an option on the 1LE coming out soon.

I also believe that the horsepower and handling competition between Ford, Chevy and Dodge pushes the envelope with every new model. The car enthusiasts are the benefactors that reap the rewards of the manufacturers dueling it out for track supremacy. Being an old fart I have the unique ability to remember 426 Hemis, LS6 Chevelles and 429 Cobra Jets while they were new. While these cars now do very well at Barrett-Jackson auctions they are NO MATCH for what is currently being offered in car show rooms and what they can do on the street and the track.

I am a Chevy fan but can certainly appreciate what is being offered by other car makers. I do have to agree with Mr. Wydham on one aspect of the Ford philosophy, I cannot understand why on the GT350 they forced customers to pick either a track pack or a tech pack but NOT both. Chevy does it better by offering all the options available because each option checked off brings in more money and lets the customer option the car to his/hers personal tastes. Like Mr. Wyndham said, the Chevy Team always steps up their game with each new model and I would not expect anything less with the pending 1LE and future ZL1/Z28's. Again... just an old fart's opinion.

[Bhobbs]

Yeah, I don't see how anyone can think the BOSS was a gimmick. I've ridden in a few and they are very fast cars. If I didn't see the 1LE, I would have tried to find one.

I'm not sure how the 5.2 Voodoo doesn't excel. Not only did Ford figure out how to build such a large displacement FPC V8, they put it in a car starting at $50,000, which is impressive as well.

Overall, I like the Mustang. I just wouldn't pick one over the Camaro.

[buck50]

Originally Posted by Nicul15

isn't it part of the z51 package? what does that cost these days?

Z51 package on C7 adds $5000 to MSRP. However, the package also includes the NPP exhaust today.

[Gen_Nick3.8]

Originally Posted by Nicul15

geez, ok. for 5k it would have to be something to really be on par with the GT350 tp. don't see that happening with eLSD, suspension, and tires.

First you forget that the GT350R barley beat the Z/28 around the track. Less than a second. What makes the Z/28? DSSV, Big ASS Trofero R tires and it's lightweight

The 1LE will be 100+ pounds lighter than the Z/28 have magnetic ride, e-diff, bigger tires, brakes, and all the suspension goodies will far beat out the regular GT350

[jessrayo]

I have not been on a road racing track for several months but I will pretty much put whatever I own on the track. If you are a regular at the track, you know that at least half of the guys running laps are not completely stock. Nobody that I know that is a "regular" is completely stock. After you get comfortable with a car you want to go faster and you start to mod the car. I personally am part of the culture that does not drive a car as it is delivered from the factory.

Before my '16 SS was delivered to me from the dealer I had them put in Castrol SRF brake fluid.... because I know the stock fluid will boil on a hot day at the track. Honestly, most cars including the new GM cars really cannot handle the track at a 9/10's pace for 30 minutes. The average joe will be okay but if Randy Pobst trys to go all out for a full 30 minutes there is going to be some brake fade or some fluid temp is going to get to the critical mark. So my point is if you really want these cars to run laps you are going to have to mod them.

All this talk about GT 350s and SS brings me back to the thing that every true track guy does when he buys a car. He looks at it and says what can I do with this car to make it run faster laps....and what is that going to cost me. I see a lot more when I look at the '16 Camaro because it will be easy to mod. From the factory the Camaro SS is down 71 Hp and it is faster 0to 60? 71... that is a lot of power. But I know I can easily get more power than that through the aftermarket.

I really look forward to what GM delivers as part of the new 1LE package because I'm certain I can retro fit it on my SS if I already haven't exceeded the new part potential with something else from the aftermarket. I think after all is said and done in a very short period of time, (as usual) most of the fastest cars lapping the local track will be built by GM and not Ford. Yes there are always a few Guys that go all out with the Mustangs.... but after doing this for a few years.... it is so much easier to go fast with the Chevy.

[lt4camaro]

Originally Posted by ChaseW

I agree. People aren't giving enough credit to the gt350.. The 1le will be a great car, but it's not gonna top the gt350. Now the zl1 will be a whole nother story. It's gonna blow shelby out of the water.

The 2016 ss non track comparisons seem to be spot on vs the gt350. I would think a 1LE version would have a good chance in beating it on the road course. A 6th gen Z28 should handle the GT350R

[lt4camaro]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

I have not been on a road racing track for several months but I will pretty much put whatever I own on the track. If you are a regular at the track, you know that at least half of the guys running laps are not completely stock. Nobody that I know that is a "regular" is completely stock. After you get comfortable with a car you want to go faster and you start to mod the car. I personally am part of the culture that does not drive a car as it is delivered from the factory.

Before my '16 SS was delivered to me from the dealer I had them put in Castrol SRF brake fluid.... because I know the stock fluid will boil on a hot day at the track. Honestly, most cars including the new GM cars really cannot handle the track at a 9/10's pace for 30 minutes. The average joe will be okay but if Randy Pobst trys to go all out for a full 30 minutes there is going to be some brake fade or some fluid temp is going to get to the critical mark. So my point is if you really want these cars to run laps you are going to have to mod them.

All this talk about GT 350s and SS brings me back to the thing that every true track guy does when he buys a car. He looks at it and says what can I do with this car to make it run faster laps....and what is that going to cost me. I see a lot more when I look at the '16 Camaro because it will be easy to mod. From the factory the Camaro SS is down 71 Hp and it is faster 0to 60? 71... that is a lot of power. But I know I can easily get more power than that through the aftermarket.

I really look forward to what GM delivers as part of the new 1LE package because I'm certain I can retro fit it on my SS if I already haven't exceeded the new part potential with something else from the aftermarket. I think after all is said and done in a very short period of time, (as usual) most of the fastest cars lapping the local track will be built by GM and not Ford. Yes there are always a few Guys that go all out with the Mustangs.... but after doing this for a few years.... it is so much easier to go fast with the Chevy.

A base manual 2016 SS is approx. 3670 lbs, the base gt350 is close to 3800lbs, should bring the horse to weight ratio closer and not really 71 HP apart.

[6spdhyperblue]

Originally Posted by lt4camaro

A base manual 2016 SS is approx. 3670 lbs, the base gt350 is close to 3800lbs, should bring the horse to weight ratio closer and not really 71 HP apart.

yeah thats a good point.

although, the gt350 shouldn't really see anything under 400-425rwhp at the track.

the SS will dip to 350-375rwhp following redline in the previous gear

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by SUMMIT WHITE SS

First off, "engines that don't excel"? Umm, the Coyote is an awesome engine, then you say the "Boss 302 was a gimickey joke"? It just showed how far behind GM was at that time in chassis engineering on the Camaro and made them get their shit together and make the 1LE and Z28. I get this is a Camaro site, but come on.

The engine management technologies on Fords are...mundane. A wise friend who knew far more about this than me told me once that Ford engines are good for their power under almost any circumstances...because they aren't smart enough to adjust to the environment. This is where opinion comes into play, hard...I just resonate better with GM's engineering approaches to things. But I'm fully aware that the counter argument would be something along the lines of "Well, on a really hot and humid day the Mustang will continue to develop its advertised power, and the Camaro won't."

The 5.0L engine may be good...but it's already "old" in terms of technology and output...hasn't even been around that long, yet. Their Ecoboost engine outputs more than their V6. Easily bottom percentile in the class. As far as the Ecoboost engine itself...it's great, I just don't understand why they charge more for it.

The ZL1 and 1LE development were well underway by the time the Boss came out. Believe it or not, the 1LE was not a direct "answer" to the Boss at all...it was intended to be an awesome track car built from the scraps of the ZL1 for cheap.

It was convenient that both cars were a similar formula, because it made for some very interesting comparisons...in which the Boss was beaten repeatedly by the far less expensive 1LE. Now, the stage is set...and it is expected that these two cars do battle on the track. If not for the 5th gen Camaro, or the "shock and awe" of the ZL1....I have a hard time believing there would be a GT350 with a flat-plane racing motor...

And I think the base Boss 302 was a joke because it, like the base GT350 was a "track car" without any necessary track equipment, like coolers, etc. And it was gimmicky because of that stupid freaking "red key". The Laguna Seca version, as I said, was good...I also have been around a track in one; very fast. It was just way to expensive for what it was. And then they killed it.

Originally Posted by SUMMIT WHITE SS

Overall the '11-'14 Mustang GT was a much better car then the 5th gen Camaro SS, and I owned both. Gotta give credit where credit is due.

Now, when it comes to the new cars, the tables have turned completely...

When the 5th generation Camaro came out, Ford was still rocking a 300hp V8, a 500hp supercharged GT500...and no sort of track wards attention whatsoever. They improved the live rear axle as much as they possibly could - but it was still a live rear axle all the way up until 2015....Really? And the interior...my brother still has a 2007...good Lord, it made my old Cobalt look luxurious.

The 5th generation Camaro was heralded as the "reclaimer" of the class, in some fashion or another. Lifting it to a level not thought of...the ZL1 alone was touted by nearly all the magazines as the first of it's kind in the pony car class...the car that all the rest should aspire to.

As I said - while I'm uninterested in the Mustang, I don't "hate" it, or anything. But it was most certainly not a better overall car than the Camaro. Not by a long shot.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I'm not sure how the 5.2 Voodoo doesn't excel. Not only did Ford figure out how to build such a large displacement FPC V8, they put it in a car starting at $50,000, which is impressive as well.

I was not referring to the 5.2L engine. It is unique, and it performs well at the job it was intended for.


I never intended to argue about my person inclinations to drive or not drive something...nor engineering philosophy...So I'll leave my end here, and get on with the discussion about this impending 1LE.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

The engine management technologies on Fords are...mundane. I revel in the details. A wise friend who knew far more about this than me told me once that Ford engines are good for their power under almost any circumstances...because they aren't smart enough to adjust to the environment.

And their Ecoboost engine outputs more than their V6. Easily bottom tier in the class. Why offer it? As far as the Ecoboost engine itself...it's great, I just don't understand why they charge more for it.

The ZL1 and 1LE development were well underway by the time the Boss came out. Believe it or not, the 1LE was not a direct "answer" to the Boss at all...it was intended to be an awesome track car built from the scraps of the ZL1 for cheap.

It was convenient that both cars were a similar formula, because it made for some very interesting comparisons...in which the Boss was beaten repeatedly by the far less expensive 1LE. The base Boss 302 was a joke because it, like the base GT350 was a "track car" without any necessary track equipment, like coolers, etc. And it was gimmicky because of that stupid freaking "red key".


When the 5th generation Camaro came out, Ford was still rocking a 300hp V8, a 500hp supercharged GT500...and no sort of track wards attention whatsoever. They improved the live rear axle as much as they possibly could - but it was still a live rear axle all the way up until 2015....Really? And the interior...my brother still has a 2007...good Lord, it made my old Cobalt look luxurious.

The 5th generation Camaro was heralded as the "reclaimer" of the class, in some fashion or another. Lifting it to a level not thought of...the ZL1 alone was touted by nearly all the magazines as the first of it's kind in the pony car class...the car that all the rest should aspire to.

As I said - while I'm uninterested in the Mustang, I don't "hate" it, or anything. But it was most certainly not a better overall car than the Camaro. Not by a long shot.


I was not referring to the 5.2L engine. It is unique, and it performs well at the job it was intended for.

The above engine comments make zero sense and reminds me of something I'd read on some wanna be automotive blog, written by some biased automotive writer trying to validate his opinions without facts.

You keep mentioning the track key, guess you forgot (or didn't know) GM
started that whole "gimmicky" key thing with the ZR-1 in 1989...

Then you bring up interiors, nobody talking about interiors should ever, ever bring it up in regards to the 5th gen Camaro. Which quite possibly had one of the worst interiors in recent GM memory, and this is a well known fact. The main reason I sold my 5th gen was the Rubbermaid interior. By 2010 the Mustangs interior was totally redone and lightyears better (and reviewed better) then the 5th gen. And while before that it wasn't so great, there also was no Camaro...

You neglected to say when the 5th gen came out Ford had the Coyote ready for sale in mid 2010. Anybody that denies the validity of these engines features is living under a rock.

I am one of the few not blinded by brand favoritism, as I've owned three Camaros and three Mustangs, and will be getting a 6th gen 1LE. You need to try to broaden your horizons and listen to different people, as your statements are well, kinda wack lol.

Just sayin'