[V6CamaroRS]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The LSX 454 is not a street legal engine. It does not need to meet fuel and emissions regulations, and it doesn't have the same durability requirements as production engines.

Yes, I know. I addressed that very point in my post.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

If GM doesn't go with an LT4 Z28, the most reasonable option would be to improve the LT1 along the lines of the LS1 to LS6. The LS6 ended up being a 15% improvement over the LS1. The LT1 improved by 15% would make 525 hp and tq. That would be a very good Z/28 engine.

Maybe like an LT5? i.e. The one sitting between the LT1 and the LTX?

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The odds of that happening without another Corvette coming along are 0.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this point. The way that GM is working its platforms, the LT5 would make a lot of sense in a variety of vehicles. Not the least of which are the heavy-duty pickup needs. Now that the Gen IV Vortec engines are going out of production, there's a need to fill the gap. The LT1 is slotting into a few of them, but a heavier duty block is probably needed.

One of the cool things about the Gen V technology is that GM can ramp up the total horsepower the engine can put out, but still make it fuel efficient enough on the low end to exceed emissions regulations.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

If the ZR1/Zora does come out, it will likely be a forced induction engine.

This I agree with. Mostly.

Chevy has already made it clear that we will not see a ZR-1 in the current chassis. So if we see a mid-engine design, it could be the standard chassis for the entire 'vette lineup. In which case it may come in a variety of engine options.

[GoneBoy]

Originally Posted by Trans damm

Is there a mystery motor? I think people are over thinking this. GM is not known to pull off big surprises. The motor is an LT4. If they add another NA motor to the Vette that will be your NA Camaro motor. Not before. IMO.

Agreed. LT4 in ZL1 for sure. I'd still be shocked if they did another uber track-focused Z28 anytime soon for the 6gen. Yeah, it makes for good bragging rights that it can hang with 6-figure exotics, but at the end of the day, dealers still need buyers to purchase them. Otherwise, its just a pricey and monumental GM R&D/Marketing experiment. With the price increase across the board for the 6gens, I'd be more interested in how GM is going to reposition the Z28 to create more demand for them. Maybe the 1LE becomes the Z28 with 1LE price tag, at which point it's more than capable of taking on the gt350 on all fronts.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by V6CamaroRS

Yes, I know. I addressed that very point in my post.

I missed it on the first read.

Originally Posted by V6CamaroRS

Maybe like an LT5? i.e. The one sitting between the LT1 and the LTX?

What LT5? Other than some trademark application, there is no indication GM is working on a genV engine called LT5.

Originally Posted by V6CamaroRS

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this point. The way that GM is working its platforms, the LT5 would make a lot of sense in a variety of vehicles. Not the least of which are the heavy-duty pickup needs. Now that the Gen IV Vortec engines are going out of production, there's a need to fill the gap. The LT1 is slotting into a few of them, but a heavier duty block is probably needed.

LT series engines do not get used in trucks. The LS6 was used in the C5 Z06 and early gen 1 CTS-Vs, but no trucks. The no gen III 5.7s ever made it in a truck.

One of the cool things about the Gen V technology is that GM can ramp up the total horsepower the engine can put out, but still make it fuel efficient enough on the low end to exceed emissions regulations.[/QUOTE]

To an extent. Apparently, that was not true for the C7 Z06's naturally aspirated engine.

Originally Posted by V6CamaroRS

Chevy has already made it clear that we will not see a ZR-1 in the current chassis. So if we see a mid-engine design, it could be the standard chassis for the entire 'vette lineup. In which case it may come in a variety of engine options.

Where has Chevy made anything clear about future Corvettes? I haven't seen anything but rumors when it comes to the ZR1, whether it's mid engine or going to be the C8 chassis.

[V6CamaroRS]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I missed it on the first read.

No worries

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

What LT5? Other than some trademark application, there is no indication GM is working on a genV engine called LT5.

There are two critical points that make the LT5 makes sense:

1. Gen V is extremely light on options. Gen IV had just shy of a dozen engines in the LS lineup. Granted, they used a lot of the same tech, but that's the idea behind Gen V. The only way the LT1 and LT4 would make sense as the only Gen V engines is if Chevy decided to redirect its entire focus on V6 and lower engines. Given the products they're putting out, that's a tight (albeit not impossible) option. Keep in mind that the LT4 is basically the LT1 with a supercharger. That's an incredibly small portfolio!

2. The LT5 only makes sense if there will be a separate ZL1 and Z/28. Last time the Chevy engineers felt strongly enough about the Z/28 that they kept the two separate. If that remains true in this generation, an LT5 engine is guaranteed.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

LT series engines do not get used in trucks.

Hate to break it to you, but the L83 used in Checy's current truck line is an LT1 modified for truck use. Which basically means a smaller bore and lower performance parts that exchange performance for reliability. To get more power for the trucks you need a bigger block as a basis.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

To an extent. Apparently, that was not true for the C7 Z06's naturally aspirated engine.

???

Err, the Z06 is supercharged....

Where has Chevy made anything clear about future Corvettes? I haven't seen anything but rumors when it comes to the ZR1, whether it's mid engine or going to be the C8 chassis.

The mid-engine part is a rumor. (Though perhaps not as much with some recent spy shots of a mule.) What is not a rumor is Tadge Juechter saying there will be no ZR-1 because the platform is maxed out.

Some take that to mean that there will be a mid-engine 'Vette. Of course, Tadge did deny current plans for the C8 to be mid-engine. I personally considered the "Zora" plan dead until I saw the recent spy shots of the mule. At the very least it seems the 'Vette team is keeping its options open.

[Bhobbs]

1. I know the LTx is light in versions. I've been saying that for a while. Just because we think there aren't enough versions doesn't mean GM is going to build more. The LSx went through a number of displacements and power levels. The LTx started where the LS ended. That's why I'm skeptical GM is building more.

2. If there are separate ZL1s and Z/28s this generation. More than likely, there will be one, just like the Corvette.

3. The EcoTechIIIs are LT based but they aren't modified LT1s. Same architecture, different components and tunes. GM isn't going to build a bigger block. They haven't in a long time.

4. I know the Z06 is supercharged. They tried an n/a motor first and failed to hit their power goals while meeting emissions, so they went with a supercharger.

5. Do you have a link to Tadge saying the C7 is tapped out? I must have missed that.

Those spy shots were a long time ago and we haven't seen anything since. Either GM got really good about hiding a mid engine mule, the suspended the program or dropped it completely. I'm hoping it's the first one.

[V6CamaroRS]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

1. I know the LTx is light in versions. I've been saying that for a while. Just because we think there aren't enough versions doesn't mean GM is going to build more. The LSx went through a number of displacements and power levels. The LTx started where the LS ended. That's why I'm skeptical GM is building more.

2. If there are separate ZL1s and Z/28s this generation. More than likely, there will be one, just like the Corvette.

For what it's worth, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I agree that ditching the ZL1 and rebranding it the Z/28 makes the most sense. However, if a ZL1 comes out it is unlikely that Chevy would leave the Z/28 badge to languish. In that case we're almost certain to see the LT5.

3. The EcoTechIIIs are LT based but they aren't modified LT1s. Same architecture, different components and tunes.

My understanding is that most of the difference is in the exhaust. The parts are otherwise very similar or the same. Of course, there's not that much info out there on the L86 (example hearsay), so it's possible I'm wrong. If you have better info backed by a reliable source, by all means record it somewhere. e.g. Update the Wikipedia page.

4. I know the Z06 is supercharged. They tried an n/a motor first and failed to hit their power goals while meeting emissions, so they went with a supercharger.

Ah, sorry. I misunderstood. Yes, Chevy did say that they were unhappy with the results in the Z06 using an n/a engine. A lot that goes into performance development, though. They've been pretty non-specific on what the exact problems were. It's quite possible that a design dismissed by Corvette engineers looking to outperform the last generation's ZR-1 would still be useful for a Camaro Z/28 project.

5. Do you have a link to Tadge saying the C7 is tapped out? I must have missed that.

Here you go: http://www.corvetteblogger.com/2015/...adge-juechter/

There's also this tidbit that supposedly came from Mark Reuss that the C7 would be a short generation:

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...life-span.html

(Sorry, can't find a more official source at the moment.)

Those spy shots were a long time ago and we haven't seen anything since. Either GM got really good about hiding a mid engine mule, the suspended the program or dropped it completely. I'm hoping it's the first one.

You and me both.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by V6CamaroRS

For what it's worth, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I agree that ditching the ZL1 and rebranding it the Z/28 makes the most sense. However, if a ZL1 comes out it is unlikely that Chevy would leave the Z/28 badge to languish. In that case we're almost certain to see the LT5.



My understanding is that most of the difference is in the exhaust. The parts are otherwise very similar or the same. Of course, there's not that much info out there on the L86 (example hearsay), so it's possible I'm wrong. If you have better info backed by a reliable source, by all means record it somewhere. e.g. Update the Wikipedia page.



Ah, sorry. I misunderstood. Yes, Chevy did say that they were unhappy with the results in the Z06 using an n/a engine. A lot that goes into performance development, though. They've been pretty non-specific on what the exact problems were. It's quite possible that a design dismissed by Corvette engineers looking to outperform the last generation's ZR-1 would still be useful for a Camaro Z/28 project.



Here you go: http://www.corvetteblogger.com/2015/...adge-juechter/

There's also this tidbit that supposedly came from Mark Reuss that the C7 would be a short generation:

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...life-span.html

(Sorry, can't find a more official source at the moment.)



You and me both.

1. I don't see how changing the Z/28 again makes sense. The 5th gen ZL1 established that badge as a good all around performer. No need to remake the Z/28 to be what the ZL1 already is.

2. I'm not sure exactly how many parts are different but GM gives them different designations for a reason.

3. I haven't seen what the power goals were for the n/a Z06 but, supposedly, it was European emissions that killed it. I don't know for sure if that's the case.


Thanks for the links. I'm surprised they would admit to hitting the performance cap with the Z06.

[V6CamaroRS]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

1. I don't see how changing the Z/28 again makes sense. The 5th gen ZL1 established that badge as a good all around performer. No need to remake the Z/28 to be what the ZL1 already is.

The reason really is tradition. The Z/28 has always been the top of the line Camaro. To have a generation without a Z/28 is to ignore that tradition. The existence of the ZL1 demonstrates how much the Chevy engineers care about maintaining that tradition. Otherwise they would have left he Z/28 badge on the car and said "good enough".

3. I haven't seen what the power goals were for the n/a Z06 but, supposedly, it was European emissions that killed it. I don't know for sure if that's the case.

My understanding is that European regulations are based around the displacement of the engine. Chevy may have been able to hit the CAFE standards with their tech, but price themselves out of the Euro market due to too much displacement. Even at 6.2L, Europeans have to be paying a pretty penny for the Corvette!

Thanks for the links. I'm surprised they would admit to hitting the performance cap with the Z06.

No problem. I imagine their thinking in touting the cap was twofold:

1. Play up how amazingly powerful the Z06 is
2. Convince the market that a lack of a ZR-1 is not a big deal

Realistically, the rear wheel drive platform just cannot handle too much horsepower. At 650HP with an ultralight chassis, the 'Vette requires the super-advanced downforce aero bits to put the power down and stay planted. (I believe Motortrend tried removing them when they had car problems and all that happened was stability suffered.)

Technological advances will continue to improve the situation, but I have a hard time imagining that Corvette will be able to avoid the mid-engine question for much longer. It may or may not be the plan for the C8, but there should be no doubt GM is testing designs.

If not C8, then perhaps C9. It will depend on where Checy decides to position the 'Vette. For now it's highly competitive with its AWD and mid-engine competitors. Chevy may be waiting for them to show their hands before committing to a direction.

[Techn9cian805]

Originally Posted by GoneBoy

Agreed. LT4 in ZL1 for sure. I'd still be shocked if they did another uber track-focused Z28 anytime soon for the 6gen. Yeah, it makes for good bragging rights that it can hang with 6-figure exotics, but at the end of the day, dealers still need buyers to purchase them. Otherwise, its just a pricey and monumental GM R&D/Marketing experiment. With the price increase across the board for the 6gens, I'd be more interested in how GM is going to reposition the Z28 to create more demand for them. Maybe the 1LE becomes the Z28 with 1LE price tag, at which point it's more than capable of taking on the gt350 on all fronts.

I would agree with that last bit, except that renaming the new 1LE as the Z28 would kinda cheapen the name that the 5th gen Z28 has made for itself. gotta be a bigger difference between SS and Z28 to actually be a Z28 and live up to the name.

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

IMO we had 2 cars at the ring.

One was the 1LE with a better set up for tires and rims, better handling and not much more.

Car 2 was the ZL1 with the LT4 in the car, more Airo mods, better brakes, and handling.

The year after they come out look for more ring time with the Z/28 car, if members of the Camaro team get what they want look for a small displacement V8 with high revving capability, i know you dont think its right but IMO that is whats coming.

This last part was talked about by Al and Mark Reuss

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/06/...maro-race-car/

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by V6CamaroRS

The reason really is tradition. The Z/28 has always been the top of the line Camaro. To have a generation without a Z/28 is to ignore that tradition. The existence of the ZL1 demonstrates how much the Chevy engineers care about maintaining that tradition. Otherwise they would have left he Z/28 badge on the car and said "good enough".



My understanding is that European regulations are based around the displacement of the engine. Chevy may have been able to hit the CAFE standards with their tech, but price themselves out of the Euro market due to too much displacement. Even at 6.2L, Europeans have to be paying a pretty penny for the Corvette!




No problem. I imagine their thinking in touting the cap was twofold:

1. Play up how amazingly powerful the Z06 is
2. Convince the market that a lack of a ZR-1 is not a big deal

Realistically, the rear wheel drive platform just cannot handle too much horsepower. At 650HP with an ultralight chassis, the 'Vette requires the super-advanced downforce aero bits to put the power down and stay planted. (I believe Motortrend tried removing them when they had car problems and all that happened was stability suffered.)

Technological advances will continue to improve the situation, but I have a hard time imagining that Corvette will be able to avoid the mid-engine question for much longer. It may or may not be the plan for the C8, but there should be no doubt GM is testing designs.

If not C8, then perhaps C9. It will depend on where Checy decides to position the 'Vette. For now it's highly competitive with its AWD and mid-engine competitors. Chevy may be waiting for them to show their hands before committing to a direction.

1. Traditionally, the Z/28 was built for the track to compete in road racing. The engine was built for racing to meet the class rules. That's why they built the DZ302 and later used the LT1, when the rules changed. If you want to go by tradition, the LT4 has no business being in the engine bay of a Z/28. I would rather the Z/28 not come back the end up being a car that doesn't follow tradition.

2. I'm not real familiar with European taxes it it seems they do tax a lot of stuff they consider luxury items like power functions and automatic transmissions, or at least that's what I've read.

3. I think mid engine is the next logical step for Corvette. A lot of people seem to agree, based on the mid engine prototypes GM has built. It will be interesting to see if they do it and what it's capable of.

[V6CamaroRS]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

1. Traditionally, the Z/28 was built for the track to compete in road racing. The engine was built for racing to meet the class rules. That's why they built the DZ302 and later used the LT1, when the rules changed. If you want to go by tradition, the LT4 has no business being in the engine bay of a Z/28. I would rather the Z/28 not come back the end up being a car that doesn't follow tradition.

Good! We're agreed then. :-)

So if the LT4 is reserved for a supercharged ZL1 car and that it's unlikey that the Z/28 will be left out of this generation, then we have to logically answer the question of what a Gen6 Z/28 will look like.

Possibility #1

Let's speculate that a new engine is not in the cards. In that case we really only have one GenV engine in the n/a category: The LT1.

So in this case the Z/28 would perhaps be a track focused SS with higher performance parts, lower weight, perhaps even a *gasp* back seat delete?!?

Problems:

- Chevy already positioned a product in the last generation. The 1LE "track package"
- Unlikely to outperform Gen5 Z/28
- Less effective than a ZL1 with its LT4 engine


Possibility #2

Let's speculate that a new engine is not in the cards. Let's also speculate that Chevy is willing to keep the LS7 engine. In that case the new Z/28 would look just like the old one, but in a shiny new Gen6 body. It will considerably outperform its predecessor and challenge the new ZL1. Win-win, right?

Problems:

- Keeping GenIV engines around is not keeping with GM's fewer parts strategy
- Not as strong of a GT350 competitor
- ZL1 may still be too damn good in comparison

Possibility #3

Let's speculate that the LT5 registration is legitimate. Since the registration in 2013 we've seen the LT1 and LT4 engines mentioned in the same registration. GM is also an engine developer and seller. They sell way more engines through their performance parts division than they put into production cars. It only makes sense to leverage all that R&D to keep producing top-tier products that will make GM a lot of money.

If we go easy on the speculation of the engine, we could use the LS7 as a guide. Increase displacement to 7 liters, swap in titanium parts for higher revving, tweak compression ratios a smidge, and you've got an LT1 based engine that makes 550HP.

That's still more powerful than the LS7, still very torquey down low, and likely to compete exceptionally well against the GT350.

Problems:

- GM needs to develop a new GenV engine
- With a strategy of parts sharing, what else needs the LT5?

----

I've made no secret that I think #3 is most likely. Though I personally think they'll try to hit 600HP with the LT5.

Which scenario do you think is most likely?

[V6CamaroRS]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS@Gen5diy

The year after they come out look for more ring time with the Z/28 car, if members of the Camaro team get what they want look for a small displacement V8 with high revving capability, i know you dont think its right but IMO that is whats coming.

This last part was talked about by Al and Mark Reuss

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/06/...maro-race-car/

You could be right. Ford has definitely demonstrated in the Voodoo that a high-revving engine with a low displacement can be a strong competitor. I just wonder if such an engine is anywhere in GM's DNA. The LS line and LT line show a particular philosophy on engine design. They may want a high-revver, but is GM really ready to bet the necessary R&D dollars on it?

The only way I'd see that happening is if the engine designers have truly tapped out the current design trajectory. e.g. Intel couldn't continue to ramp up MHz any longer on their microprocessors so they switched to adding more cores. When more cores wasn't enough, they went to 3D circuit design. This transition was exceptionally painful for the company and almost lost them the market to AMD when the Pentium IV just couldn't cut it.

While I see GM staying ahead of the curve a bit better than Intel, I don't think we've seen enough of a slowdown in their current trajectory to make them redirect funds. They literally have to be frustrated at the lack of ROI to see them take an R&D path that is borderline disruptive to their current business. What I've seen so far is that their current engine design philosophy is paying massive dividends. Not just in the GenV V8s, but even in the V6 arena.

Who in their right mind would have ever thought we'd see a 335HP, naturally aspirated, V6 engine?!? Especially one with no compromises, drawbacks, or reliability problems?

Who thought we'd see the day when the first taste Chevy gives anyone of a new Camaro is not the V8, but the V6? Who would have thought that such a car would be the perfect everyman's sports car?

I guess time will tell. Any way you cut it, the engine for the Z/28 is going to be special.

[IOMike]

500hp to make some headlines and make it more desirable, basically a ls6 treatment to the lt1.

Let's face it, a better wheels and tires package and maybe minor minor suspension tweaks puts the 1ss on par with the gt350r. It will not be difficult for them to surpass it, its almost a given since the 1ss is on par with the gt350 on its lesser tires.

I just hope they give it a more aggressive look, like the zl1 and z/28 had.