05-19-2015, 08:39 AM | #29 |
GM repeat offender...
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I actually agree with Choco, on this one. A stripped car@$75k, good for only track days, assuming no valvetrain issues inherent of the LS7, does NOT sound like anything Id sign up for.
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05-19-2015, 08:46 AM | #30 |
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I think the issue with the Z/28 is that people want a car that beats others in magazines and internet comparison videos, but people don't want to spent the coin to own it.
"oh hell yea, its so much faster than cars that cost twice as much. No way im spending 75 grand on it though, ill just buy a 1LE" its a bragging rights car for the internet age. We can all rub the nurbergring time in other companies faces. But no one is buying it because they just don't need it. And GM knew that going in, its not a high volume car. they knew it was a niche car when they built it. Everyone keeps saying how much they want carbon ceramics and spool valve suspension on the 6th gen SS but no one is going to drop that coin on it when it comes down to checking the box on their order form. Don't get me wrong, some will and those are the people that are serious about tracking these cars. the majority of us however drive to work and back in them. The Z/28 was a design exercise to prove that they could. and they did it very very well. just my .02 |
05-19-2015, 08:52 AM | #31 | |
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Let's take the Z06 for example. They said they went with FI because they could not get the numbers they wanted otherwise. That doesn't mean they just stopped R&D right there and threw in the towel, the word they forgot in their statement was "yet". |
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05-19-2015, 09:21 AM | #32 | |||
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An all new engine ala LS3 to LS7 just for the Camaro I don't see any chance of that happening. GM loves sharing engines, what else would this special engine power? ATS-V has the TT6, CTS V has the LT4. Using history as my guide, I don't see a true new unique engine for a special Camaro. A hot rodded version of the LT1 that I see as very possible |
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05-19-2015, 09:25 AM | #33 |
C'mon- really?
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An 'impractical' or race-focused 'street' car will sell - at the right price with the right marketing and yes, the right features. Just look at Porsche and their 911 GT series cars.
The current Z/28 is great at what it does but yes, it is highly impractical for the average Joe. But I am 100% certain it would have sold much better at a lower price. More options at $75K probably would not have sold the car any better. IMHO, the only way the Z/28 would have sold at $75K was if it had 650+HP. There is a lot of concern about the LS7 reliability proven by valve drop issues on the C6Z plus it was an 'old' motor. When people could buy the ZL1 with more HP, Mag Ride, etc for LESS money that pretty much doomed the Z/28. It had NOTHING to offer over the ZL1 other than a faster track time which 99% of the buyers really don't care about. But look at the Hellcat - they can get any price they want (for now) and it is not because the car offers AC or a big sound system. It is because it is the big dog on the porch.
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Steve
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05-19-2015, 09:37 AM | #34 |
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I followed the 5th gen development since 2003-2004 and Chevrolet gave the community the Z28 it wanted: a hardcore, naturally aspirated, no-frills race car for the street, positioned so that it would be the top trim in the lineup. I believe the only reason why we got a ZL1 for the 5th gen was because GM didn't want to slap a Z28 badge on a heavy, forced induction car. The Z28 is a great car, a halo car for the Camaro brand, but it didn't sell because of its price tag -- a natural result of the constraints put on the car during its design.
I don't believe you can position a future Z28 as a top of the line street car while limiting yourself to 1960's era design criteria, not because it wouldn't be good, but because there is no market for an $80,000+ Camaro. In a world of 700+ HP sedans, increasing CAFE restrictions and government regulations adding more bulk to already overweight cars, it makes sense to use forced induction to get more performance out of smaller engines while reducing cost. As much as that goes against the grain of the original Z28 formula, it's inevitable. Even Ferrari is abandoning naturally aspirated V8s. I feel there is no way Chevrolet will miss out on offering a Z28 of some kind for the 6th gen Camaro. The designation has too much history. I think a lot will hinge on what Ford does with the GT350 and the (potential) GT500. For me, I'd like to see a Z28 positioned between the SS and LT4 car -- with more of a focus on handling and track performance. |
05-19-2015, 09:42 AM | #35 |
C'mon- really?
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Just my guess but...
Gen 6 Z/28 - Naturally aspirated LT1 with track focus, maybe a few more HP. I think this car is a very likely candidate to be built. It wouldn't have to add a ton to the price structure either. Gen 6 ZL1 - LT4 derivative with similar Gen 5 features (mag ride, etc) and about 625-635 HP. Higher priced than the Z/28 (if the ZL1 gets even built at all).
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Steve
2018 Camaro 2SS 1LE Black #3805 - SOLD |
05-19-2015, 10:03 AM | #36 | |
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05-19-2015, 10:20 AM | #37 | |
C'mon- really?
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Yes, those were some expensive parts but when you consider what you got with the Z/28 - it was flat out overpriced in today's market. GM set the price of the car more than the car set the price. The LS7 was a very expensive piece of the equation but still GM set the price too high to create more sales. Is the Z/28 suspension more costly than the Mag Ride set up? Same for the gears and coolers in the ZL1 vs the Z/28 - are they that different and that much more expensive? I don't think so. It was a Catch 22 at that price structure. I don't know if GM would have sold more Z/28s if the price was even the same as the ZL1? I would love to have a Z/28. Just not for that kind of money.
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Steve
2018 Camaro 2SS 1LE Black #3805 - SOLD |
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05-19-2015, 10:32 AM | #38 | |
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Yes, the DSSVs are more expensive than the MRC. The ZL1 doesn't come with R compound tires. The ZL1 doesn't come with carbon ceramic brakes. The ZL1 doesn't come with standard Recaro seats. The ZL1 doesn't come with standard tubular headers. The LSA is cheaper than the LS7. The ZL1 doesn't have a radio and A/C delete option. All those things add up.
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05-19-2015, 10:39 AM | #39 | |
C'mon- really?
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And are those new pieces THAT substantially more than what comes on the ZL1 if you deduct what the ZL1's parts would be that get replaced? And 'delete options' should drop the price. No, the Z/28's Waterloo was the pricing vs what it offered most of all.
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Steve
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05-19-2015, 11:33 AM | #40 | |
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Step back and look at the uniqueness of the 5th Gen Z/28. Heck some parts are even restricted from ordering unless you own a Z/28. Fast forward today, a small displacement motor with twin turbo, which by GM standards will be a first, as sitting today in the next ATS-V. Since Cadillac is no longer a luxury car company as they were in the sixties, they get to play in the space now. But that motor would likely not have been built for any other car than the ATS-V. Is it even plausable that perhaps the ATS-V would not have been planned were it not also in the plans to share that same technology in another GM vehicle? I think it is.
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05-21-2015, 11:29 AM | #41 |
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What are the chances of seeing another high revving NA engine from GM. They said they couldn't meet performance targets and emissions with the z06, but could they try to put it in the next hot Camaro?
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05-21-2015, 11:58 AM | #42 | |
C'mon- really?
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But the bigger question is this - How LIKELY is it? I would love to see a high revving N/A motor in a Gen 6 Z/28 with a lot of horsepower. I guess time will tell... it's just how likely is it to happen? I really think we would be more inclined to see an LT1 tweaked a bit to 500+ HP, maybe even 550 for the Z/28. But that is just a wish list or best guess.
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Steve
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