[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Autonaut

GM has no DCT transmission as far as i know. If thats the case you need to take this into account. Also, option or not, adding awd would not be needed to dwarf the competetion.
Until GM is forced to go dohc, awd or dct, they wont. Keeping the costs down and still beating the competetion is all they need to stay relevant.

You could be right though. It could give it an edge. But is it worth the costs now?

For a 2.0T (if in the Gen 6) or the V6, AWD would be a huge differentiator to the Mustang, Challenger and Genesis. There are people in snow the snow belt that might not want the hassle of a RWD only car. It opens the market. The more people that buy the better opportunity our car continues. So I didn't mean to imply "dwarf" the competition, but to add a differentiating feature. "I can't decide between a V6 Camaro and a 2.3T Mustang, but I do live where it snows, so AWD points me to the Camaro"

We should not as enthusiasts wrap ourselves in 1965 and claim that is all a Pony Car can and should ever be. I've said all along, I want the Gen 6 to be the best coupe available and by that I mean I want people that would otherwise consider FWD coupes. Coupes are dying ladies and gentlemen. Going the way of the station wagon. Anything we can do that can get people in a Camaro is ok for me.

Keep in mind, an AWD Audi S5, which you can get for around $55,000 decently contented will run a 4.9 0-60 with only 333 HP.

The BMW 4 335 xdrive with a 6 cylinder will also run 5.0 seconds or less. Alos around $55,000 well equipped. (Note - both the S5 and 4 can go well over $60 if you want)

Both have AWD systems that help performance.

I know I am being overly hopefull, but short of the dealer experience, warranty and interior materials, I would like the Gen 6 to better driving cars than these two.

DCT? Well there were rumors that GM was working on one for the FWD cars. I thought I read that the new Cruze in China was going to have one. Maybe that was a rumor too. So simply for FE GM is likely working on one. It is an automatically shifting manual and will improve FE, performance aside. So I can only assume GM is working on one for RWD applications. The issue is, as you point out, is it worth the investment. GM will only have Alpha and Y-car architectures for RWD in the future and that is a pretty low volume to invest in, especially if GM has convinced itself that the 8L90 is "just as good", which until I drive one, isn't

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Number 3

For a 2.0T (if in the Gen 6) or the V6, AWD would be a huge differentiator to the Mustang, Challenger and Genesis. There are people in snow the snow belt that might not want the hassle of a RWD only car. It opens the market.

You'd be shocked how few Camaro, Mustang and Challangers there are in Wisconsin. An AWD entry level Camaro would changes that. Most don't want to deal with or can't afford having winter and summer tires.

I lived in Atlanta 2009 to 2012 and immediately noticed how many more rear drive cars there were.

[DrkPhx]

I doubt they will offer the Camaro in AWD. I would however love to see GM offer AWD in their ATS-V or CTS-V cars. I would buy one in a heartbeat.

[Autonaut]

Originally Posted by Number 3

For a 2.0T (if in the Gen 6) or the V6, AWD would be a huge differentiator to the Mustang, Challenger and Genesis. There are people in snow the snow belt that might not want the hassle of a RWD only car. It opens the market. The more people that buy the better opportunity our car continues. So I didn't mean to imply "dwarf" the competition, but to add a differentiating feature. "I can't decide between a V6 Camaro and a 2.3T Mustang, but I do live where it snows, so AWD points me to the Camaro"

We should not as enthusiasts wrap ourselves in 1965 and claim that is all a Pony Car can and should ever be. I've said all along, I want the Gen 6 to be the best coupe available and by that I mean I want people that would otherwise consider FWD coupes. Coupes are dying ladies and gentlemen. Going the way of the station wagon. Anything we can do that can get people in a Camaro is ok for me.

Keep in mind, an AWD Audi S5, which you can get for around $55,000 decently contented will run a 4.9 0-60 with only 333 HP.

The BMW 4 335 xdrive with a 6 cylinder will also run 5.0 seconds or less. Alos around $55,000 well equipped. (Note - both the S5 and 4 can go well over $60 if you want)

Both have AWD systems that help performance.

I know I am being overly hopefull, but short of the dealer experience, warranty and interior materials, I would like the Gen 6 to better driving cars than these two.

DCT? Well there were rumors that GM was working on one for the FWD cars. I thought I read that the new Cruze in China was going to have one. Maybe that was a rumor too. So simply for FE GM is likely working on one. It is an automatically shifting manual and will improve FE, performance aside. So I can only assume GM is working on one for RWD applications. The issue is, as you point out, is it worth the investment. GM will only have Alpha and Y-car architectures for RWD in the future and that is a pretty low volume to invest in, especially if GM has convinced itself that the 8L90 is "just as good", which until I drive one, isn't

I understand. It's not like i cant see the advantages either. I would steer away from one due to added weight, but i dont use performance cars during rough weather.
I kindda feel the same as you. Im also in the market for a 2.3L mustang or 4/6banger camaro.. I'd love the v8 but wife/kids/home is not free you know for v8's im happy with my el camino..
A dct equipped 2.5 liter turbo 4 or 3L turbo 6 would be nice. An 8 speed auto seems overkill for this car.

[GroundhogSS]

RobC, why don't you take your insults and condescending attitude on over the the Porsche forums and leave us alone. The rest of us can get along just fine here with our friendly discussions.

[RobC]

Originally Posted by GroundhogSS

RobC, why don't you take your insults and condescending attitude on over the the Porsche forums and leave us alone. The rest of us can get along just fine here with our friendly discussions.

You need to go back and re-read. I was responding to trolling. And, please speak for yourself, and not the "us". You don't represent anyone but yourself.
For the record, I hate Porsche and their fan boys with a passion.

Originally Posted by Autonaut

In what fantasy world does AWD add 130lbs?


You know nothing about cars. That is clear.

the weight of the awd would hurt performance in every concieveable way except MAYBE 0-60mph(which is a useless measure these days unless you only drag race)

I restore old and classic chevy's instead.

I was nearly killed in my stripped out souped up corvette. It's a miracle nothing serious happened to me. Ever since that i've been building more conservatively.

Even the people that can afford RS4's and 6'es take their 4x4 suv or truck as they dont want the weather to ruin their cars, or get stuck in a snowpile. Awd wont do you any good if your wheels dont have any contact!

i dont use performance cars during rough weather.

Im also in the market for a 2.3L mustang or 4 banger camaro

I'd love the v8 but wife/kids/home is not free you know

Seriously, you're delusional. I understand people, you including, directly or indirectly, say i have an attitude.

Know it all people that know nothing about cars yet blatantly tells people they are retarded for buying solid rear axle equipped vehicles.

All of the above sums this guy up and why I just added him to my ignore list.
Now, no one can say I have an attitude for responding to this drivel.

[RobC]

Originally Posted by DrkPhx

I doubt they will offer the Camaro in AWD. I would however love to see GM offer AWD in their ATS-V or CTS-V cars. I would buy one in a heartbeat.

Agreed.
But, not everyone wants the weight and price of a V-car.

In light of $75,000 Camaros, why can't AWD be a paid OPTION on a Camaro SS? Some of us just want a Camaro SS that we can COMFORTABLY drive year round.

[RobC]

Originally Posted by Number 3

DCT is just a better trasmission IMO regardless of gear change times. AWD even if the ATS/CTS variety will make the non V8 coupes more attractive all around particularly in the Northern climates.

GM has an opportunity here. They will likely not take advantage of it.


There are people in snow the snow belt that might not want the hassle of a RWD only car. It opens the market. The more people that buy the better opportunity our car continues.

We should not as enthusiasts wrap ourselves in 1965 and claim that is all a Pony Car can and should ever be. I've said all along, I want the Gen 6 to be the best coupe available and by that I mean I want people that would otherwise consider FWD coupes.
Anything we can do that can get people in a Camaro is ok for me.

Keep in mind, an AWD Audi S5, which you can get for around $55,000 decently contented will run a 4.9 0-60 with only 333 HP.
Both have AWD systems that help performance.

I know I am being overly hopefull, but short of the dealer experience, warranty and interior materials, I would like the Gen 6 to better driving cars than these two.

I enjoy reading your posts and agree. It's nice to hear from a educated "car guy".
ON PAPER, a Audi S4 with DCT is my favorite daily driver, especially when it's running 11's after a tune and exhaust. But, German ownership scares the hell out of me.
I am a loyal GM V8 guy, who prefers to support the American car industry and values the performance, reliability and economy that GM V8 ownership offers.
I think a AWD Camaro SS would be the "American Audi S5" that I have been dying to own for a LONG time, even with a 7spd stick, or (God forbid) that terrible 8spd slushbox.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by RobC

The pony car is dead. Camaros now weight 4,000 lbs.
Not to mention, the competition offers both DCT and AWD for the same price as a Camaro.

Which Pony Car offers a DCT and/or AWD???

Originally Posted by RobC

Agreed.
But, not everyone wants the weight and price of a V-car.

In light of $75,000 Camaros, why can't AWD be a paid OPTION on a Camaro SS? Some of us just want a Camaro SS that we can COMFORTABLY drive year round.

Adding AWD will increase the weight of the SS and cost to the entire line.

[RobC]

Originally Posted by Posaune

Which Pony Car offers a DCT and/or AWD???

Adding AWD will increase the weight of the SS and cost to the entire line.

I feel as if posts like the one above ignore everything that has been typed out in this thread...... and are quite annoying.
To recap, just for you:

The Pony car is dead. Cars that are approaching 4,000lbs or more are NOT pony cars. (My fully loaded Camaro convertible with a iron LT1 weighs in at 3,600lbs)

AWD will ABSOLUTELY NOT increase cost to the Camaro entire line, and the 130lbs (ish) that AWD would add would be OPTIONAL and well worth it for people that deal with 4 season driving and/or high RWHP builds that want traction with a street tire. In fact, even though I am a HP junkie, I would choose a AWD Camaro with a LT1, over a RWD Camaro with a LT4. Traction is more important than power for a daily driver. Just like I would choose a 911 Carrera 4S or base 911 Turbo over a GT3 or GT2 if I was going to daily driver a Porsche.

Whether people want to admit it or not, the Audi S4 is a Camaro competitor that offers AWD, DCT, and 11 second timeslips.

[Autonaut]

Originally Posted by RobC

You need to go back and re-read. I was responding to trolling. And, please speak for yourself, and not the "us". You don't represent anyone but yourself.
For the record, I hate Porsche and their fan boys with a passion.






All of the above sums this guy up and why I just added him to my ignore list.
Now, no one can say I have an attitude for responding to this drivel.

The fact that you edit my posts when quoting them is laughable. I understand why you have blocked me though. You cant answer any questions i, or anyone else for that matter, have asked you.

But you're right. Everything i said sum me up pretty well. I can't afford everything. Not several v8 cars for instance. Taxes here are a little different than in USA. I could sell everthing i have and build racecars again, so that i would comply to your ideals. But what would be the point! I buy old old rusty cars for cheap and fix them up in my spare time.

Im pretty stupid really, considering i sell them as soon as they become what i had imagined.
But figuring out what to use for the desired goal, and imagining various colors and seeing them come alive when i finally send them for paint, is pure joy. Scoring a set of used aluminum heads for cheap, rebuild them, find out what GM parts interchange to build a better handling version of the original car. Starting the engine up for tve first time. Seeing it the first time when i comes from paint. Or taking it outside in the sun for the first time after reassembly. It's pure joy and i wouldnt trade it for 600rwhp camaro 5, 6 or porsche gt3. I'll wait a few years before buying a v8 5/6th gen.. Maybe not until someone gives up on it and stores it away. Who knows.

Many car guys out there can relate to this im sure. I had it passed on from my dad, and i will pass it on to my son/s..

Anyways, when you find the time i would like to know where you can find a awd system weighing 130lbs able to withstand 500rwhp you claim exists.. I'd love to try and fit it to my recent build. That would be sweet..

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by RobC

I feel as if posts like the one above ignore everything that has been said in this thread...... and are quite annoying.
To recap, just for you:

The Pony car is dead. Cars that are approaching 4,000lbs or more are NOT pony cars.

AWD will ABSOLUTELY NOT increase cost to the Camaro, and the 130pd (ish) that AWD would add would be OPTIONAL and well worth it for people that deal with 4 season driving and/or high RWHP builds that want traction with a street tire.

Whether people want to admit it or not, the Audi S4 is a Camaro competitor that offers AWD, DCT, and 11 second timeslips.

Audis, Infiniti G37s and the like are NOT Camaro competitors. They are premium luxury cars and have a different mission and buyer base.

Weight alone does not determine a pony car. I guess you either don't know or don't remember that the 2nd cars could push near 4000lbs.

The costs to the entire program go up when AWD is added as does the weight. Substructures in the front end would be heavier to accommodate the AWD hardware, even on the 2wd models. The costs of engineering the AWD is spread across the board. It isn't just paid for by those checking the AWD box.

Oh, even on the great G37x you keep talking about. The weight difference on the coupe between 2wd and AWD is 201 lbs.

[RobC]

Originally Posted by Autonaut

Anyways, when you find the time i would like to know where you can find a awd system weighing 130lbs able to withstand 500rwhp you claim exists.. I'd love to try and fit it to my recent build. That would be sweet..

Nissan, Porsche, Audi, Mercedes, etc, etc.
Why don't you step away from those dinosaurs on your front lawn and educate yourself on cars from the last decade before you start trying to argue with educated car guys?
Good job responding to my post ASAP.

[RobC]

Originally Posted by Posaune

Audis, Infiniti G37s and the like are NOT Camaro competitors. They are premium luxury cars and have a different mission and buyer base.

Weight alone does not determine a pony car. I guess you either don't know or don't remember that the 2nd cars could push near 4000lbs.

The costs to the entire program go up when AWD is added as does the weight. Substructures in the front end would be heavier to accommodate the AWD hardware, even on the 2wd models. The costs of engineering the AWD is spread across the board. It isn't just paid for by those checking the AWD box.

Oh, even on the great G37x you keep talking about. The weight difference on the coupe between 2wd and AWD is 201 lbs.

You're wrong.
Other cars and manufacturers have shown that adding the option of AWD does not have a negative affect on the weight and price of the base RWD car.
Crying about the OPTION that would add a few dollars to a car that has already had a $75k MSRP and a few lbs to a car that has already weighed over 4,100bs, in exchange for 4 season utility and increased street tire traction, is just laughable.

I have found the real world measured weight differences between the AWD and RWD Infinitis is less than 200lbs. But, even at 200lbs, it is well worth 200lbs for the added traction and year round utility that AWD offered.
The ZO6 adds 250lbs of weight over the base C7. So, I think AWD is worth adding 130-200lbs to a car.

I would much rather have a AWD Camaro SS than my G37x. But, don't hate on the G37x sedan. There isn't much that can beat it for a daily driver, especially for the money. My ONE G37x replace the duties of BOTH my Tahoe and Camaro SS. Replacing 2 vehicles with 1 is awesome. The G37x is a much better daily driver than my Tahoe, and not much slower than a stock Camaro SS. Not to mention, I already have dedicated performance machines in my Corvette and 1000cc bikes. My G37x was my first new import, and hopefully my last, as long as GM can pull their head out of their ass.