[HumanWiki]

Originally Posted by tt335ci03cobra

Also, turbos compensate for altitude so if ford had an intercooler turbo mill, they probably could have still run at least 200 at Arizona and the engine wouldn't have experienced near as much heat soak as the inlet air would be going directly into the motor right after the charge cooling intercooler vs being cooled down only to run through very hot lobes in the sc setup.

Intercooler comes after the lobes, not before. It also comes after the fins on a centry unit.

[eolson]

So why isn't it that Ford and Chevy don't implement turbo power in these cars instead of super charging.

Do they consider turbo charging sissy power from europe and japan?? A gender bender kind of power maybe?? What is it about turbo charging that seems effeminate to american car designers?? Not enough rock n roll I guess, or is it...........t h e t u r b o l a g....... Erik

[Blue Menace]

Originally Posted by eolson

So why isn't it that Ford and Chevy don't implement turbo power in these cars instead of super charging.

Do they consider turbo charging sissy power from europe and japan?? A gender bender kind of power maybe?? What is it about turbo charging that seems effeminate to american car designers?? Not enough rock n roll I guess, or is it...........t h e t u r b o l a g....... Erik

Right on, ya beat me to this question.

[HumanWiki]

GTR doesn't seem to have an issue with that...

A properly configured Turbo system isn't that laggy.. Besides.. how much boost to you want right off the line? Hell, I'm only running a Maggy at 9PSI and if I hit it w/o the computer on, I'll break something and come off the road.

[SlingShot]

I can't speak for Ford, but GM did a fine job with the LNF engine when it comes to turbo. It is actually the most powerful production engine per liter, rated at 130HP per liter. Could you imagine just a 5.7 liter DI Turbo running around 740HP, that would be amazing.

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by assasinator

they do take about 2.5% from exhaust flow losses. the work the expanding gasses use to turn the wheel, are utilized for scavenging in an NA motor.

In all the research I've done, turbo's have about a ten percent parasitic loss, which as was mentioned in the grand scheme is still free power... Part of this is due to the back pressure they create at the exhaust manifold... The pressure is in both directions. The boost created is also transmitted back towards the exhaust manifold... Unfortunately, nothing is free...

Originally Posted by SlingShot

In the grand scheme of things that's free power.

Yup..

Originally Posted by tt335ci03cobra

Turbo's ftw. The 2015 zl1 and gt500 would be amazing with turbos. You guys saw/have seen the dyno graphs for zl1's and gt500's. Nice torque but the peak hp is pretty spikey and way up high around redline. Turbo power would yield close to peak numbers from 5200rpms to 6750rpms. I'm at full torque by 4000 and full HP by 5200 RPM, and hold that for the most part until the redline of right at 7000 RPM...

It's been proven time and again that even at the same power level, turbo cars trap higher than sc cars hp being equal.

Now, factor that you don't have the rotational stress on the motor that an sc needs to spin, and you can easily see why just 8psi through a turbo setup can be more productive than 15psi through an sc.

My own tt 5.4 setup on just 6psi puts 911 turbos to shame... Think about that and imagine how fast a 650-700hp turbo zl1 or gt500 could be. Safer too because it's cradled boost without much stress and at much lower boost levels.

Also, turbos compensate for altitude so if ford had an intercooler turbo mill, they probably could have still run at least 200 at Arizona and the engine wouldn't have experienced near as much heat soak as the inlet air would be going directly into the motor right after the charge cooling intercooler vs being cooled down only to run through very hot lobes in the sc setup.

Anyways, one can dream but they'll probably stick with sc's.

It'd be awesome though to start with 650-700hp and only need a boost controller, midpipe and tune to make 900hp.

I just installed an AMS 1000 Boost controller, and we are installing a wet nitrous system with a progressive controller... We will not be spraying in first gear as it would be virtually impossible to get traction with 1200 or so hp... even with the slicks... and 3.07 gears...

No one has mentioned this to my knowledge, but how about either of these cars with compound boost... a single or a set of twins feeding the S/C...

Originally Posted by eolson

So why isn't it that Ford and Chevy don't implement turbo power in these cars instead of super charging.

Do they consider turbo charging sissy power from europe and japan?? A gender bender kind of power maybe?? What is it about turbo charging that seems effeminate to american car designers?? Not enough rock n roll I guess, or is it...........t h e t u r b o l a g....... Erik

There may be a subtle thought in the back of the minds of the engineers, but I don't profess to know what they are thinking. There is nothing sissy about a set of 67/66 precision turbos on a 427 ci LS3... I would call it down right violent, especially from around 3500 rpms on up...

As for lag, I had very little lag with the smaller turbo's I had, (62/65's) but there is some now, though it certainly isn't anything to complain about... When the boost hits, OMG... We are going to use the nitrous to push the turbo's... making them spool faster, and for the IAT cooling affect...

For what it's worth, I look forward to seeing both the ZL1 and the GT 500 at the track... Both are amazing cars..

[radz28]

I think turbos might be more complicated hardware-wise, perhaps... I imagine software and tuning will pose maybe a little more in the wat of complications. I mean, you need wastegates and blow-off valves, and oil/coolant lines, not to mention the packaging problems (I remember reading GM tried turbos' on ZR1 but had "thermal issues" or something.

I'm old school, and just like the look of SCs better, however, there's no denying turbos' are more efficient.

I'm not sure if I'd like seeing turbos' on the next gen' 'Stang, but I welcome most any poweradder

[evolve]

Originally Posted by radz28

I think turbos might be more complicated hardware-wise, perhaps... I imagine software and tuning will pose maybe a little more in the wat of complications. I mean, you need wastegates and blow-off valves, and oil/coolant lines, not to mention the packaging problems (I remember reading GM tried turbos' on ZR1 but had "thermal issues" or something.

I'm old school, and just like the look of SCs better, however, there's no denying turbos' are more efficient.

I'm not sure if I'd like seeing turbos' on the next gen' 'Stang, but I welcome most any poweradder

This. I am also looking at the Dodge camp and seeing the possibility of a s/c Challenger/Charger. The pony wars are in full swing and it looks as though car makers are hitting all areas of automotive performane, not 100% strait line.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by SlingShot

I can't speak for Ford, but GM did a fine job with the LNF engine when it comes to turbo. It is actually the most powerful production engine per liter, rated at 130HP per liter. Could you imagine just a 5.7 liter DI Turbo running around 740HP, that would be amazing.

How is the LNF the most powerful specific output production engine? The Mitsu 4g63 was making near 300hp on 2.0l in the early 2000s and the 4b11t was also 2.0l making near 300hp.

Originally Posted by radz28

I think turbos might be more complicated hardware-wise, perhaps... I imagine software and tuning will pose maybe a little more in the wat of complications. I mean, you need wastegates and blow-off valves, and oil/coolant lines, not to mention the packaging problems (I remember reading GM tried turbos' on ZR1 but had "thermal issues" or something. Extra piping is obviously required vs a supercharged engine or n/a, but turbo systems really aren't too complex and have become very reliable.

I'm old school, and just like the look of SCs better, however, there's no denying turbos' are more efficient.

I'm not sure if I'd like seeing turbos' on the next gen' 'Stang, but I welcome most any poweradder

Most production engines use internally-gated turbos, so there is no external gate. Also, bypass valves are pretty dang simple and silent, blow off valves really don't hold much value anymore as they vent metered air and cause a rich condition in many new turbo engines.

Turbo lag has almost become non-existent as of late. To reference an engine mentioned in this thread, the LNF makes peak torque by 2,500 rpm. There are many ways to increase spool with tuning and thermal-wrap/coating on older engines also. My turbo is tiny, but even with the laggier boxer layout I'm seeing 400 ft lbs+ at 3,500rpm. Also, something to note on the future of turbo performance, Subaru has mentioned the next sti will use a hybrid-electric turbo of some new design that is supposedly going to get the turbo up to speed much faster. The boxer design makes hot-side piping longer than an inline setup so Subaru has been spending a lot of r&d on eliminating turbo lag for their next gen of performance cars. Look into the prodrive p2's antilag system too.

[SlingShot]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

How is the LNF the most powerful specific output production engine? The Mitsu 4g63 was making near 300hp on 2.0l in the early 2000s and the 4b11t was also 2.0l making near 300hp.

Sorry, I wasn't considering imports in this conversation about domestic cars. For what it's worth, my Redline is running just under 300 HP and around 345 TQ with full GM warranty until just recently. The warranty is under just the extended now ...

[2ndCamaro79]

I think N/A cars and supercharged cars are more in-line with the whole American Muscle Car thing BUT I think the next gen of Mustangs/Camaros/Mopars will be global cars and anything is possible including turbos.

[matt55]

271hp in 2003 to 291hp in 2008 for 2.0L Evo's
Btw my stock "286hp" IX did 265awhp on a Dynojet awd dyno.
I still miss my turbo cars.....

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by SlingShot

Sorry, I wasn't considering imports in this conversation about domestic cars. For what it's worth, my Redline is running just under 300 HP and around 345 TQ with full GM warranty until just recently. The warranty is under just the extended now ...

I see. Well, there's no doubt the LNF is a great engine. The redline/solstice gxp are sweet little cars. The LNF responds great to simple mods, especially a tune. Though when it comes to specific output, imports have an inherent advantage because most of them are building in markets with displacement-based taxes and it's more economically advantageous to build low-displacement high output engines. The FQ evolutions over in Europe and Japan have put down over 400hp from a 2.0l engine in stock form. I don't really see much value when comparing engines for any real application by specific output, but it is impressive and credit is due to Mitsubishi in that regard. I'm not a big fan of the Evo, but I was sad to see it go.

I do hope to see a turbo pony car in the near future. An ecoboost mustang or the upcoming tt v6 from GM in a Camaro would be one sweet ride and if the power output of these cars keep going up as quickly as they have been, I wouldn't be surprised to see the base models with these types of powerplants.

[eolson]

Exactly. If the GTR has such fast 4 wheel drive acceleration, why wouldn't other platforms follow that more efficient "fast car" lead for the next generation american performance cars.

We keep hearing about future cars that would get great milage in the lower rpm's with a cutting edge four cylinder engine, that would have amazing performance with a turbo charger gradating into the rpm curve around 2800rpm. Since turbos can be set to different psi per gear, you could have a system designed for 3 psi in 1st gear, 4 psi in 2nd gear, 5psi in 3rd gear, and 6 psi in 5th, 7psi in 6th..........

WTF are they waiting for?? A 4 wheel drive 4 cylinder car with fully modern traction, launch and magnetic suspension controls with a perfectly intergraded twin turbo charged, gear specific, turbo system, in a much lighter 2500lb modern materials sports car. Where is it??? Erik