[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by diarmadhi

Guess I have to be the devils advocate here.. but if the states where giving "extras" to these foreign companies.. why didnt GM/Ford/DCX jump on the boat and build some plants there? Especially if its such a huge issue....

Personally I just don't see how this article is related (oh and I am in favor of the loan).

When Saturn built their plant in Spring Hill, Tennessee they got tax breaks for 10 years, that is one reason the plant was built here. Unfortunately the UAW had GM under their thumb with their contracts so GM had offer the jobs to laid off workers from other GM plants first, before opening job offers up to local people...

[rgrizzard]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Then let them build in their country if we're too high-priced. That's due to our Nation's standard of living (thanks in no small part to the big three), and I'd rather not compromise that for the sake of a few thousand jobs. Sounds harsh, but

Each plant might only employ a "few thousand jobs" but just as with the Big 3 many more jobs are at stake(suppliers and other support services), and you are missing the point.

The Big 3 can move to these other states as well and get the same and possibly even better deals. Unless the unions strike against them for leaving to go to RTW states, but thats another story.

Thats why I don't support the bailout(and also because I am a capitalist), because they should have moved ops to other states where they see better incentives, a few hundred million here and there add up to billions.

When I got laid-off some time back, and likely again in June, there is no government bailout for me or my company to keep me. It's called capitalism. The bail-out for the financial markets was a joke and goes against everything in capitalist economics.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by rgrizzard

Each plant might only employ a "few thousand jobs" but just as with the Big 3 many more jobs are at stake(suppliers and other support services), and you are missing the point.

The Big 3 can move to these other states as well and get the same and possibly even better deals. Unless the unions strike against them for leaving to go to RTW states, but thats another story.

Thats why I don't support the bailout(and also because I am a capitalist), because they should have moved ops to other states where they see better incentives, a few hundred million here and there add up to billions.

When I got laid-off some time back, and likely again in June, there is no government bailout for me or my company to keep me. It's called capitalism. The bail-out for the financial markets was a joke and goes against everything in capitalist economics.

You don't understand, They just can't do what you said, pull up stakes and move to a RTW state. the Unions have a big foot in the door already and their contracts hold the companies to the fire so to speak on them. they would lose much more trying to move a plant than just building one from scratch like the foreign ones do. Since like with the Saturn plant they were forced to rehire union workers under existing contracts, it does not benefit the companies much unless they can renegoiate the contract.

[rgrizzard]

Actually I do understand thats why I brought up union issues and the states laws regarding unions. Controlled bankruptcy allows them to break the union deals and contracts which I believe is needed at this point.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by rgrizzard

Actually I do understand thats why I brought up union issues and the states laws regarding unions. Controlled bankruptcy allows them to break the union deals and contracts which I believe is needed at this point.

Bankruptcy is not a union-buster, and it won't be used that way. Contracts will simply be renegotiated with a third party, not broken. Besides the point, any bankruptcy will take place under the direction of a democratic president. That's neither a good nor bad thing. Just a consideration...

Secondly...since when can a manufacturer already in the red just pickup and move shop? They have over 40 plants; and they'd have to move at least half to make any reasonable impact. Now you're shifting employment; and laying off tens of thousands of people in some places, just to hire more in others. The local economies aren't ready for something like that -- and the company isn't ready for such an investment. The money they'd have to pour into building needless plants and closing perfectly fine ones would far outweigh any labor savings...especially since the labor cost discrepancy is non-existant.

[rgrizzard]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Bankruptcy is not a union-buster, and it won't be used that way. Contracts will simply be renegotiated with a third party, not broken. Besides the point, any bankruptcy will take place under the direction of a democratic president. That's neither a good nor bad thing. Just a consideration...

Clarifiaction: Bankruptcy can be a total union contract buster if determined by the judge if it gets to that point. The president, regardless of Bush or Obama, and Congress should have no say in the banruptcy if it went that route as neither has the expertise to do so. However we are dealing with politicians who think that they are the all encompassing experts on everything for us.

I was not trying to say that the union itself would go away.

[rgrizzard]

To your 2nd point I was trying to say that this is something along with a lot of other things that they should have been doing all along. If Michigan wasn't being competitive over the last 20 years or so then they should have looked elsewhere. You let the old factories die out after they can not be retooled while bringing up new factories in locations that are more favorable to your existing business.

This is standard in manufacturing to remain competitive. I work in the Semiconductor and Hard disk drive manufacturing industry and see this all the time. After plants can no longer be reasonably retooled you look elsewhere to build your next plants, however the big 3 were not as opportunistic as others and get left behind because of this. I know, I know .... Unions(see UAW) are centralized in Detroit and held them back a great deal. Now the Unions get to reap their benefits and drag down others while they are at it...