[KingLT1]

There is a new supplemental fuel solution available on the market that uses 2 port fuel injectors and a plate mounted behind the throttle body that integrates with the factory ECM. It basically activates off of End of Injection timing and requires no external controllers or complicated tuning methods. You basically tune it like it's not there.

Price is reasonable and has been mentioned to support around 900whp on full E85 with a otherwise stock fuel system.

Just mentioning this here for those looking for something more reliable than meth injection but don't want to deal with full port injection.

There is more info on the website for those interested. It has shown to actually gain about 10whp just by adding it and no other mods. Likely from the cooling effect.

https://www.wisherperformance.com/

[Z OH 6]

I saw a lot of people concerned about the fuel damaging the rotor coating on the superchargers. I don't know how much of this is a real concern or FUD.

[radz28]

THAT'S FRICKIN' COOL!!!

Would this kind of system function similarly to a carb' wherein the atomized fuel (obviously better in this system) would cool the blower and intercooler bricks, too? AND - get the same intake valve benefits as PI? I guess, theoretically - maybe it wouldn't be as efficient as PI, as some fuel would "stick" to the the blower and intake port surfaces, but that's probably not much of an issue.

Would you think the limit is just the stock fuel system low side? I suppose the snout size might limit on crazy builds but still really interesting! The integration looks like it would be a BIG plus, too.

NICE FIND!!!

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

I saw a lot of people concerned about the fuel damaging the rotor coating on the superchargers. I don't know how much of this is a real concern or FUD.

Yeah I read some of those comments. I am not sure how E85 would be more corrosive than those who run 2-3 nozzles of 100% meth?

Originally Posted by radz28

THAT'S FRICKIN' COOL!!!

Would this kind of system function similarly to a carb' wherein the atomized fuel (obviously better in this system) would cool the blower and intercooler bricks, too? AND - get the same intake valve benefits as PI? I guess, theoretically - maybe it wouldn't be as efficient as PI, as some fuel would "stick" to the the blower and intake port surfaces, but that's probably not much of an issue.

Would you think the limit is just the stock fuel system low side? I suppose the snout size might limit on crazy builds but still really interesting! The integration looks like it would be a BIG plus, too.

NICE FIND!!!

Yes I believe so. Not sure sticking or fuel puddling is a issue due to it only activates when air velocity is fairly high. I believe once EOI hits 180 it activates and that is likely going to be above 4500rpm on most setups.

I would think low side would be the first limit but it might go further being you take load off the high side and there is only 2 PI injectors to feed. The nice thing about Pi is 80-90% of the injector capacity can be utilized vs 35% on a DI injector. Which means you have to hit them with a ton of pressure to keep the pulse width in check and that is why we need extremely capable low sides to feed DI only fueling vs PI.

[radz28]

Makes sense when I hear it from you, lol. That also makes me think about other fueling-related stuff. Hmm... Anyways - I was just curious. This looks and sounds pretty nice and simple. it's nice you don't have to worry about hood clearance (unlike SSs) and just don't have to add a whole lot more wiring and hoses and clutter. I'd rather trim a coupler or something like that than chop the hood. A billet lid hurts a bit, but the additional noise makes up for that. Still - this looks simpler.

[ZLRob]

A couple good housekeeping items that I feel the need to mention on here:


The rotor coating on these set ups are critical due to the fact that the rotors themselves on TVS setups rely on the rotors creating a positive seal to "compress or squeeze" the incoming air. If that coating goes away then you are opening the door for boost loss. Regardless of what you use, whether it be meth or E85 that could be problematic down the road.


As for the design, I think it is absolutely sweet and was initially all for it, but then got talked out of it due to the fact that it was mentioned to me about the potential fire hazard risks that do exist with a set up like that. For all accounts and purposes it's the equivalent to carb injection or TBI. If that goes lean once and backfires through the EVAP or the TB itself, that engine bay is going up in flames and you may not be able to get to the fire fast enough to where you save the engine and/ or wiring. It'll get expensive real quick.


I think the set up is absolutely sweet and it has benefits, but it also has potential drawbacks which can be very costly.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Yeah I read some of those comments. I am not sure how E85 would be more corrosive than those who run 2-3 nozzles of 100% meth?

No question that methanol is more corrosive than ethanol. I honestly don't know enough about the durability of the blower rotor coatings to say if it matters or not.

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by ZLRob

A couple good housekeeping items that I feel the need to mention on here:


The rotor coating on these set ups are critical due to the fact that the rotors themselves on TVS setups rely on the rotors creating a positive seal to "compress or squeeze" the incoming air. If that coating goes away then you are opening the door for boost loss. Regardless of what you use, whether it be meth or E85 that could be problematic down the road.


As for the design, I think it is absolutely sweet and was initially all for it, but then got talked out of it due to the fact that it was mentioned to me about the potential fire hazard risks that do exist with a set up like that. For all accounts and purposes it's the equivalent to carb injection or TBI. If that goes lean once and backfires through the EVAP or the TB itself, that engine bay is going up in flames and you may not be able to get to the fire fast enough to where you save the engine and/ or wiring. It'll get expensive real quick.


I think the set up is absolutely sweet and it has benefits, but it also has potential drawbacks which can be very costly.

Good points and I seen someone else mention the potential fire but what are the actual chances of a lean backfire? You hear about it with nitrous but I have never heard of it with meth injection.

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

No question that methanol is more corrosive than ethanol. I honestly don't know enough about the durability of the blower rotor coatings to say if it matters or not.

Same...

[ZLRob]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Good points and I seen someone else mention the potential fire but what are the actual chances of a lean backfire? You hear about it with nitrous but I have never heard of it with meth injection.


Same...

I'm going to quote what was said to me by a friend of mine regarding the system:


"All it would take is a miss or sticky valve or just the right things lining up like a little leak or whatever and she's a BBQ pit." He's not wrong either and that small statement (plus a couple stories of engine bay fires that he knew about that occurred on the dyno and being out on the road) is what ultimately made me back off from pursuing it.


I have personally seen the way ethanol causes corrosion to aluminum over time and since there is no ignitability at the rotors (obviously), I could see it eating away at the coating which would then compromise boost production, which would then obviously compromise power production over time unless you regularly send out the rotors for re- coatings, but that would cause extra downtime on the end users end.


It's a slippery slope when you start injecting any type of fuel pre combustion chamber on a PD blower equipped vehicle. I guess it ultimately boils down to how much work and maintenance are you willing to do on your vehicle after the fact it is all built how you want it.


I love the idea on the product and the execution is superb personally. As long as whoever has it understands the potential ramifications that exist with the system equipped vs. not running it at all, I think that's the most important thing above all.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by ZLRob

I'm going to quote what was said to me by a friend of mine regarding the system:


"All it would take is a miss or sticky valve or just the right things lining up like a little leak or whatever and she's a BBQ pit." He's not wrong either and that small statement (plus a couple stories of engine bay fires that he knew about that occurred on the dyno and being out on the road) is what ultimately made me back off from pursuing it.


I have personally seen the way ethanol causes corrosion to aluminum over time and since there is no ignitability at the rotors (obviously), I could see it eating away at the coating which would then compromise boost production, which would then obviously compromise power production over time unless you regularly send out the rotors for re- coatings, but that would cause extra downtime on the end users end.


It's a slippery slope when you start injecting any type of fuel pre combustion chamber on a PD blower equipped vehicle. I guess it ultimately boils down to how much work and maintenance are you willing to do on your vehicle after the fact it is all built how you want it.


I love the idea on the product and the execution is superb personally. As long as whoever has it understands the potential ramifications that exist with the system equipped vs. not running it at all, I think that's the most important thing above all.

Well said and agreed. Definitely better off injecting *after* the rotor pack in my humble opinion. Feel like that can make for one of those “Top Fuel” blower explosions you see on occasion…no bueno lol

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by ZLRob

I'm going to quote what was said to me by a friend of mine regarding the system:


"All it would take is a miss or sticky valve or just the right things lining up like a little leak or whatever and she's a BBQ pit." He's not wrong either and that small statement (plus a couple stories of engine bay fires that he knew about that occurred on the dyno and being out on the road) is what ultimately made me back off from pursuing it.


I have personally seen the way ethanol causes corrosion to aluminum over time and since there is no ignitability at the rotors (obviously), I could see it eating away at the coating which would then compromise boost production, which would then obviously compromise power production over time unless you regularly send out the rotors for re- coatings, but that would cause extra downtime on the end users end.


It's a slippery slope when you start injecting any type of fuel pre combustion chamber on a PD blower equipped vehicle. I guess it ultimately boils down to how much work and maintenance are you willing to do on your vehicle after the fact it is all built how you want it.


I love the idea on the product and the execution is superb personally. As long as whoever has it understands the potential ramifications that exist with the system equipped vs. not running it at all, I think that's the most important thing above all.

I am not experienced with this but I thought most backfire scenarios happen when trying to spray liquid or gas at too low of rpm with a high load? Which is why they recommend a window switch with Nitrous for example. Since this activates off injection timing, it's not going to activate until higher rpm. I know ethanol can be corrosive if laying on aluminum but the rotors are Teflon coated. Also with how well atomized the ethanol is and the velocity it's moving does that make it a non issue? Would be nice if something with more experience would chime in.

[ZLRob]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

I am not experienced with this but I thought most backfire scenarios happen when trying to spray liquid or gas at too low of rpm with a high load? Which is why they recommend a window switch with Nitrous for example. Since this activates off injection timing, it's not going to activate until higher rpm. I know ethanol can be corrosive if laying on aluminum but the rotors are Teflon coated. Also with how well atomized the ethanol is and the velocity it's moving does that make it a non issue? Would be nice if something with more experience would chime in.

I know the EOI on the set up is programmable and usually recommended to be set at the 180* mark. I'm not sure if the set up is designed to work off just the EOI alone or if there's more to it, but I'd imagine the set-up is designed to spray all the time. Unless it is similar to the LT5 where the PFI is supplemental and not a constant variable. The supplemental portion of it spraying in the higher RPM range, I think along the lines of 4500 RPM and up if I remember right (LT5 not the Wisher set up).


I've been lucky enough to witness a few fiery backfires in my career, both up close and personal and as the "fly on the wall" so to speak. The amount of flames that I'd see coming out of those carbs was always unnerving because of how volatile carb cleaner is. Low RPM/ low load situation, is usually what that would be right, however, a high RPM/ high load situation which is where this would definitely be working would be a prime candidate for less of a backfire and more of a sudden pop/ explosion. All it would take would be one singular lean event for things to go awry real quick.


I do hope someone with more intimate knowledge of the setup can jump in as well. It's important to be a student of the game and I'd like to be proven wrong and shown how safe it can be/ is though general knowledge and wisdom based on the injection location relative to where it is mounted to on the general engine tells me it can be problematic if the general fuel system is not healthy or poorly tuned.


One thing I didn't even go into was the chance of uneven fuel distribution into the runners which can cause poor running issues down the road as well. The chances of pooling can be created.

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by ZLRob

I know the EOI on the set up is programmable and usually recommended to be set at the 180* mark. I'm not sure if the set up is designed to work off just the EOI alone or if there's more to it, but I'd imagine the set-up is designed to spray all the time. Unless it is similar to the LT5 where the PFI is supplemental and not a constant variable. The supplemental portion of it spraying in the higher RPM range, I think along the lines of 4500 RPM and up if I remember right (LT5 not the Wisher set up).


I've been lucky enough to witness a few fiery backfires in my career, both up close and personal and as the "fly on the wall" so to speak. The amount of flames that I'd see coming out of those carbs was always unnerving because of how volatile carb cleaner is. Low RPM/ low load situation, is usually what that would be right, however, a high RPM/ high load situation which is where this would definitely be working would be a prime candidate for less of a backfire and more of a sudden pop/ explosion. All it would take would be one singular lean event for things to go awry real quick.


I do hope someone with more intimate knowledge of the setup can jump in as well. It's important to be a student of the game and I'd like to be proven wrong and shown how safe it can be/ is though general knowledge and wisdom based on the injection location relative to where it is mounted to on the general engine tells me it can be problematic if the general fuel system is not healthy or poorly tuned.


One thing I didn't even go into was the chance of uneven fuel distribution into the runners which can cause poor running issues down the road as well. The chances of pooling can be created.

I am 99% sure it doesn't run all the time...only activates when needed based off EOI. That is why I don't believe pooling or backfires will be an issue. I don't think you would want this to be active all the time because the injector placement isn't ideal for low rpm usage. The air velocity needs to be high in order to properly displace the fuel charge. I also wouldn't think Ryan @ GPI would endorse this if it wasn't a good option. Now I am not saying this is what everyone should run or it's the best option, but I will be following along to see how folks end up liking it. So far those that are running it say it works great.

[swisstyphoon]

I've been researching this myself and watched a few videos. To me it seems very similar to meth injection, you're basically spraying fuel into the intake/rotor area. A lot of people have been running meth setups like that for years without backfire issues.
I could also see this being a good solution for someone trying to stretch their fuel system a little further, but who doesn’t want to spend the money or go as deep as port injection, or doesn’t want to deal with a meth setup. Seems like a nice middle-ground option. I also heard they are also working on a Magnusson 2650 / 103TB solution..