[RobZL1]

Here we go again. Until one of these cars hits a dynojet roller or a mainline hub, no one is going to believe the numbers. This is a 675-690rwhp car on any other dyno. But hey, at least this car is complete while my engine is still on the stand. LOL

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by RobZL1

Here we go again. Until one of these cars hits a dynojet roller or a mainline hub, no one is going to believe the numbers. This is a 675-690rwhp car on any other dyno. But hey, at least this car is complete while my engine is still on the stand. LOL

Yeah this is why I don’t get excited about non-hub dyno numbers. They’re a great tuning tool but the variances in numbers can be wild.

[AZIROC]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

Those dyno numbers are ridiculous and not accurate at all for the mods listed. Its literally impossible. That car would dyno 100WHP less on any other calibrated dyno.

These are legit WHP numbers for headers and intake on a ZL1 from a well proven shop. Quite a difference as you can see.

Thats where I was alittle confused by his numbers I just have the basic zl1 mods (pulley, roto, full exhaust and tune) and in the summer (phoenix az) i put down 62x rwhp and that was with my s/c pump going out. I know full e85 goes a long ways with these motors... but hes saying stock pulley. I was just not finding the 80-100 hp difference just by putting bigger radiators abd hoses. If it was that simple, everyone would have done that by now.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by djctoto

Funny for every dyno result every posted by Patriot Motorsports USA or in one of their videos there has never been a baseline dyno pull done first. I wonder why? It doesn't take that long to do and is the only way to get a meaningful before and after comparison for the tune.
And It certainly wouldn't hurt the car to do a single baseline pull.

I'm not an expert by any means but you would think that even without being tuned the amazing cooling modifications would allow the stock tune to function more effectively without the need for the heat related decreases in engine timing and the resulting loss of power that seem to make the difference.

Problem with that logic is that there's not 100whp worth of timing to be had in any tune with any amount of cooling.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by AZIROC

Thats where I was alittle confused by his numbers I just have the basic zl1 mods (pulley, roto, full exhaust and tune) and in the summer (phoenix az) i put down 62x rwhp and that was with my s/c pump going out. I know full e85 goes a long ways with these motors... but hes saying stock pulley. I was just not finding the 80-100 hp difference just by putting bigger radiators abd hoses. If it was that simple, everyone would have done that by now.

1000%

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

The problem in everyone's logic is that you are all convinced the car is starving for fuel... exactly the opposite is true once the fuel you have is NOT being wasted on the massive heat that is being dumped into the left side of the engine by the Oil Cooler. This fact alone is the biggest separator from everyone with the exception of Dan's results which were not far off from what we produced with the white ZLE yesterday, also understanding his car is running with a much smaller crank pulley than ours.

I do not waste time with baselining the car which will most agreeably make 585whp. I also wish we had a Mainline Dyno here at my shop, but its a 10hr roundtrip and driving in ATL traffic with a 44ft gooseneck race trailer as a good reason why I do not do a baseline that is simply going to show what everyone already knows.

As for the mods, I never said this car had a stock lower pulley. It is running a 9.20" lower pulley that I bought from Gabe with the ATI balancer & ARP bolts.

It also has my full cooling system which as a higher capacity that what was originally tuned with my car last year. Our latest SCHX fills the entire front area of the ZL1 grill which is why I had to build an entirely new mount for it and our Oil Cooler. These revisions are now complete and this car is the product of such. You simply cannot compare apples to oranges with what I am doing and the likes of RPM which is most definitely not putting oil coolers, expansion tanks or any SCHX that has the ability to drop MATs as the car is making the pull. This cooling system was designed specifically to drop MATs on a Maggie or Whipple sized setup, so with the 1.7L SC its CAKE to keep them cool. I also just proved tha having HIGH FLOW works against you, not helping you keep things cool. After multiple back to back runs, 2-3 minutes of power pulls to blend the E85 in the tanks, there were zero bubbles in our expansion tank... NONE!

The market is lost in "drag-race mentality" and that's not a bad thing if its what you like to do and used to. However, when you come to the road course and try to run a ZLE flat out... no matter if you do not believe my posts, our dyno or the power my car really makes, bring your best drag race tune & setup, or one done by a shop like the one featured in the RPM video and see if I do not lap you within one session.

This car was built so it will be reliable... the runs we made were Pump Shell 93oct, 20%, 30% and then 40% E85 purchased at Racetrac locally here in Florence. I have run my car all the way to E47% and only in the hot South Carolina humidity did I ever begin to have fueling issues with an IAT of 110º which lead me to adding more 93oct to reduce it to 40% to eliminate the issue.

For the past couple weeks I have shared the upgrades with photos and examples of the work we do here. Its very simple. If not all the 8 cylinders are capable of giving you 100% output to make power with a crisp AF ratio because they are not all the same temperature. I spent decades tuning 2-stroke V6 outboards making 400+hp with only 2.5-3.2L displacement naturally aspirated... all done with JET/Injector fueling, port timing and ignition timing adjustments. Having the tools like I have now, makes this easy once the full system works as one.

[djctoto]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

Problem with that logic is that there's not 100whp worth of timing to be had in any tune with any amount of cooling.

Agreed.

What I was wondering is if you did a baseline with a completely stock set up then did all the cooling mods would you see any difference once it was running hot?

[radz28]

Isn't a stock lower 8"?

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by radz28

Isn't a stock lower 8"?

Yea, you're right, I missed that. There is a boost increase for sure then. That's going to be around 12-13psi depending on elevation but still not enough to make over 700whp. Most people end up around 640-650whp running E40 before running out of fuel on the stock fuel system.

[RobZL1]

What we ARE convinced of, is that your brother's dyno is not calibrated correctly. It doesn't matter if you hit the road course, the drag strip, or the street. What we are saying is that those mods simply don't produce that much power.

For whatever reason, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder that anyone who doesn't road race knows nothing about cars, and that the oil cooler on the block is the source of all problems.

The flaw in that logic is when other shops do a cold dyno pull, a car with these mods will make 100rwhp less than your dyno. What I mean here is that the oil temp is no greater than the coolant temp at that point and coolant temps will only be 180 or so. This is because the car sat overnight on the dyno and just got started up and brought to temperature on the dyno. At that point, the heat from the factory oil cooler is not a consideration, and those cars simply don't make 790hp at the wheels- they make about 100 less. If that's not enough logic, there are also other cars with a block-off plate or a remote cooler that remove the heat source entirely. Those cars aren't suddenly putting down 100 extra hp when they remove the heat source.

Several of us said last time that we are sure you have the best setup for repeatable, reliable horsepower without heat soak, which is perfect for a road course. No argument there.

What you fail to acknowledge is twofold:
1) take one of RPM's or Vengeance's (or whoever's) car with intake/headers/pulley/e40, put it on your dyno cold and get it up to temperature. It is also going to make 790.
2) take your car to RPM's or Vengeance's dyno. It is going to make 680 or 690.

You have probably very well found the secret sauce to sustained power output over track sessions, back-to-back, and I applaud you for it!

But you have to acknowledge that you haven't found the secret sauce to maximum power on a "cold" dyno pull with an LT4. You just haven't, man.

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by RobZL1

What we ARE convinced of, is that your brother's dyno is not calibrated correctly. It doesn't matter if you hit the road course, the drag strip, or the street. What we are saying is that those mods simply don't produce that much power.

For whatever reason, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder that anyone who doesn't road race knows nothing about cars, and that the oil cooler on the block is the source of all problems.

The flaw in that logic is when other shops do a cold dyno pull, a car with these mods will make 100rwhp less than your dyno. What I mean here is that the oil temp is no greater than the coolant temp at that point and coolant temps will only be 180 or so. This is because the car sat overnight on the dyno and just got started up and brought to temperature on the dyno. At that point, the heat from the factory oil cooler is not a consideration, and those cars simply don't make 790hp at the wheels- they make about 100 less. If that's not enough logic, there are also other cars with a block-off plate or a remote cooler that remove the heat source entirely. Those cars aren't suddenly putting down 100 extra hp when they remove the heat source.

Several of us said last time that we are sure you have the best setup for repeatable, reliable horsepower without heat soak, which is perfect for a road course. No argument there.

What you fail to acknowledge is twofold:
1) take one of RPM's or Vengeance's (or whoever's) car with intake/headers/pulley/e40, put it on your dyno cold and get it up to temperature. It is also going to make 790.
2) take your car to RPM's or Vengeance's dyno. It is going to make 680 or 690.

You have probably very well found the secret sauce to sustained power output over track sessions, back-to-back, and I applaud you for it!

But you have to acknowledge that you haven't found the secret sauce to maximum power on a "cold" dyno pull with an LT4. You just haven't, man.

We did not make "Cold Dyno Pulls" like RPM and other shops do... I drove it around in ATL traffic to get fuel, get the oil up to its operating temperature so it flows at the rate it is supposed to, hmmm I then backed it onto the dyno and upon adding 300# of sandbags to the trunk, began making first pulls. I want the results to be what the car would experience on the track with me beating on it. I could care less about Dragy times or a 1/4 mile, I did that for decades with the GTR and other cars built for such.

Since you are in Atlanta... visit Buford as the shop is there and we can compare your pulls on your car to wherever you tuned it. As I said before, its not worth my time to drive to ATL for a baseline. This theory is also flawed because Dan's car made almost what it would have but due to the variances I pointed out in the conditions, fueling and such it equated for his difference in power. Also note the calibration for our dyno is used by several local Manufacturers and Racers using it for local NASA ST, TT Spec Iron Series cars, so by the suggestion you have, they would then all be in the back of the pack and unable to compete with others using Ron's dyno or the one brought to test cars after the race. Right now it is known we are about 9-12% under the Dynojet 224X they are using locally.

Removing the oil cooler and using block-offs will still elevate oil temps, but at least the engine would be running at the same temps, thus the fueling should be even across the cylinders. Only logic here that is missing, "how rich is this engine running now?" How many pulls can you do with this configuration?

You are thinking the oil is cold or within the operation range of the coolant, which would be great if it were that simple. In any stock configuration that is why many have to let the cars cool down between runs because if you were going to let that hotter water blanket one side of the block and pistons more than the others; are you suggesting there is no combustion variance if a cylinder is 40-75º hotter than another?

I have no chip on my shoulder about other tuners... nor does it bother me what they do. I have had conversations with Ted Jannetty that have lasted an hour or so talking about his skills and what he can do with a car. Ted was one of my very first resources who lead me down several paths to develop my own parts since there was no source for what I was wanting to achieve.

To answer the other comments, yes the boost was between 12-13psi.

I am sure nothing will remedy nor appease the doubt until I get a Mainline hub dyno here at our shop in Florence... then I will do baselines and everything else I dare with it. Until then, I will continue to find the limits of these cars and keep finding out how to make them better.

[AZIROC]

So what you are saying (and please correct me if im wrong. Im obviously not on the same level of engineering yall are on) is upgrading the 3 radiators with bigger radiators and bigger (wider) lines, on top of a bigger/better oil cooler, is good for 100hp?


Is it for lower constant IATs? Just overall better cooling thats "finding" this 100hp? Why not just add an interchiller?

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

Yea, you're right, I missed that. There is a boost increase for sure then. That's going to be around 12-13psi depending on elevation but still not enough to make over 700whp. Most people end up around 640-650whp running E40 before running out of fuel on the stock fuel system.

I feel like that's right in the neighborhood of what I've seen all over the place. Jorge Loves Speed's ZL1 was around there, too, on E', if I recall. Just LTs, RFBG, and E', I think. And he was on the edge, too. It's been a while, so I could be missing something, but I think I'm close.

Anyhoo...

[clj94104]

Originally Posted by djctoto

No need to answer my question about the Ethanol mix on the final pull and results because I just found your YouTube video on the same car and results and now know that the 788whp and 839Lb-Ft of torque... were achieved running E40.

With the addition of headers on my car I spoke with both Ted the owner at Jannetty Racing Enterprises in CT a shop very well know for their builds and tuning on LT4 Camaros and Covettes as well as the owner of the shop where I ultimately had the re-tune done on my car and both had expressed concerns about running an E30 mix.

Is running an E40 mix with a stock fueling system really safe?

Because I also distinctly remember you telling me when you tuned my car on E30 that you had run yours with the stock fueling system on E40 but this was on the "hairy edge"

My FBO ZL1 ran E40 on stock fuel system for months. No issues.