[djctoto]

Letting the results and data supplied to me speak for them self.

After spending approximately $15K with Patriot Motorsports USA to have them perform a numbers of modifications including tuning on my 2019 ZL1-1LE I witnessed a dyno run and was provided with the following screen shot as the only data. This was done with an Ethanol mix at E30.

No Actual Graph was provided and the peak torque value at 2865 rpm is suspect.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pMo...usp=drive_link

After the addition / installation of 2" ARH headers their 3" x-pipe / long system, the removal of cats. And adding a MAMO blueprinted throttle body I then had the car re-tuned, no other changes were made and received the following data:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cIH...usp=drive_link

Comparing the e30 results:
Patriot Motorsports Max HP 661 @ 4862 rpm Max Trg 753 @ 2865 rpm
New Dyno Results Max HP 654 @ 6227 rpm Max Trq 663 @ 3598 rpm
Delta Max HP -7 HP Max Trq -90

Again the data shows that the actual results from Patriot Motorsports that I received. Even with the differences from Dyno to Dyno how is it possible that my engine produced -90 ftlbs of torque to the wheels after the addition of ARH 2" Headers along with the removal of CATs and the addition of a 3" x-pipe and long system into the same stock suitcase muffler.

My only guess the screen shot provided by Patriot Motorsports is flawed somehow? Buyers beware is all I can offer.

[beowulf556]

Did you ask Patriot Motorsports about it? What did they say?

[ZLRob]

Originally Posted by djctoto

Letting the results and data supplied to me speak for them self.

After spending approximately $15K with Patriot Motorsports USA to have them perform a numbers of modifications including tuning on my 2019 ZL1-1LE I witnessed a dyno run and was provided with the following screen shot as the only data. This was done with an Ethanol mix at E30.

No Actual Graph was provided and the peak torque value at 2865 rpm is suspect.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pMo...usp=drive_link

After the addition / installation of 2" ARH headers their 3" x-pipe / long system, the removal of cats. And adding a MAMO blueprinted throttle body I then had the car re-tuned, no other changes were made and received the following data:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cIH...usp=drive_link

Comparing the e30 results:
Patriot Motorsports Max HP 661 @ 4862 rpm Max Trg 753 @ 2865 rpm
New Dyno Results Max HP 654 @ 6227 rpm Max Trq 663 @ 3598 rpm
Delta Max HP -7 HP Max Trq -90

Again the data shows that the actual results from Patriot Motorsports that I received. Even with the differences from Dyno to Dyno how is it possible that my engine produced -90 ftlbs of torque to the wheels after the addition of ARH 2" Headers along with the removal of CATs and the addition of a 3" x-pipe and long system into the same stock suitcase muffler.

My only guess the screen shot provided by Patriot Motorsports is flawed somehow? Buyers beware is all I can offer.

Well the first thing to address, E30 doesn't have as much potency as E40-E50 which is where you start seeing some big benefits.


I don't know your mod list, but a throttle body is not going to provide meaningful dyno results. I may get torched for that, but after my debacle with my Soler throttle body, which is supposed to be ported and larger than OE due to it's porting (87mm but 91mm effective), it made me realize that what you are being sold is a difference in drivability, not actual horsepower and torque pick up. At least not in the more OEM power ranges.


I've always been a big proponent of a properly configured exhaust system. I won't get into it about headers vs factory manifolds, but I am certainly still running factory manifolds which are technically shorty headers. Say what you will about them but they have shown that they are more than capable of putting out and handling big power. At least in my situation they definitely have.


It may entirely be possible that you lost power due to opening up the system more than it's capable of breathing in and out. As in, you went too large on your openings and exits. You may want to consider a pulley if you haven't done one already. It may do a better job at picking up the boost that you may have lost and restoring you back into a range better suited for power delivery.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by ZLRob

Well the first thing to address, E30 doesn't have as much potency as E40-E50 which is where you start seeing some big benefits.


I don't know your mod list, but a throttle body is not going to provide meaningful dyno results. I may get torched for that, but after my debacle with my Soler throttle body, which is supposed to be ported and larger than OE due to it's porting (87mm but 91mm effective), it made me realize that what you are being sold is a difference in drivability, not actual horsepower and torque pick up. At least not in the more OEM power ranges.


I've always been a big proponent of a properly configured exhaust system. I won't get into it about headers vs factory manifolds, but I am certainly still running factory manifolds which are technically shorty headers. Say what you will about them but they have shown that they are more than capable of putting out and handling big power. At least in my situation they definitely have.


It may entirely be possible that you lost power due to opening up the system more than it's capable of breathing in and out. As in, you went too large on your openings and exits. You may want to consider a pulley if you haven't done one already. It may do a better job at picking up the boost that you may have lost and restoring you back into a range better suited for power delivery.

My CT5-V Blackwing is making 722whp through the stock exhaust, stock manifolds, stock cats, stock catback. I agree that I think they are more capable than some people give them credit for. The Blackwing has exhaust manifolds that are almost identical to the ZL1.

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by djctoto

Letting the results and data supplied to me speak for them self.

After spending approximately $15K with Patriot Motorsports USA to have them perform a numbers of modifications including tuning on my 2019 ZL1-1LE I witnessed a dyno run and was provided with the following screen shot as the only data. This was done with an Ethanol mix at E30.

No Actual Graph was provided and the peak torque value at 2865 rpm is suspect.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pMo...usp=drive_link

After the addition / installation of 2" ARH headers their 3" x-pipe / long system, the removal of cats. And adding a MAMO blueprinted throttle body I then had the car re-tuned, no other changes were made and received the following data:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cIH...usp=drive_link

Comparing the e30 results:
Patriot Motorsports Max HP 661 @ 4862 rpm Max Trg 753 @ 2865 rpm
New Dyno Results Max HP 654 @ 6227 rpm Max Trq 663 @ 3598 rpm
Delta Max HP -7 HP Max Trq -90

Again the data shows that the actual results from Patriot Motorsports that I received. Even with the differences from Dyno to Dyno how is it possible that my engine produced -90 ftlbs of torque to the wheels after the addition of ARH 2" Headers along with the removal of CATs and the addition of a 3" x-pipe and long system into the same stock suitcase muffler.

My only guess the screen shot provided by Patriot Motorsports is flawed somehow? Buyers beware is all I can offer.

Dan... you should at least back up the speculation with true results. OH WAIT... YOU WERE THERE IN THE SHOP WATCHING US DYNO YOUR CAR!. How can you insist that the chart I gave you was SUSPECT? You took your own photos and we backed it all up the next day at Road Atlanta, which you did so on a set of wheels & tires I provided for you at no cost... as well as the set of tires I paid for, to drive the car home since the aftermarket Camaro SS wheels your car was purchased with were 12-20 pounds per wheel heavier than stock ZLE wheels.

If you wanted a chart, you should have asked my Brother to send you the file. We were all there taking pics and made numerous pulls, which you witnessed each and every one of them. No Hocus Pocus, just data in and results out!

How is the low peak torque suspect..? My car with the stock cam and using the proper tuning by a seasoned professional make 800+lb/ft of torque at 2360rpm. Clearly the MAMO throttle body also adds a steep degree of complexity and was that also factored into the tuning? Several people I have spoken with have issues with these throttle bodies... might want to look there.

When you go with a larger throttle body, you affect the velocity of the air and the calibrations of such, did you change the airbox? Did you factor the stock exhaust helps build low-end torque and headers are great for upper RPM breathing?

In your area of Connecticut & New Hampshire, your Winter Fuel blend has more butane to increase the Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) in an effort to aid in cold starts. In freezing temps this is great but in a shop on a dyno or driving the car hard it most definitely will cause issues. If you're using a 30% blend of Pump E85, note that fuel is blended with 87octane not 93oct. So any tuning would most likely see a pulling of timing due to knock sensors and coilpacks showing a shorter dwell time for discharge. Did your tuner compensate for this as well? I hate to have to do all the homework for your tuner to solve your problems in just a poor understanding of what really works.

We use a Mustang Load-Based Dyno in our shop, so our numbers are typically on the low side compared to a hub or inertia DynoJet which are about 12-15% higher.

My apologies you are unhappy with your tuning results. My brother's skills are unmatched in this realm and that's why he focuses on tuning for manufacturers, pre-production prototype tuning and racing sanctioning bodies for their spec-ECUs. You had the opportunity to bring it back here... just LMK!

[radz28]

Was the throttle staying open for the retesting? If you were close to torque limits to start with, increasing air flow might push the ECM over the edge in torque and maybe could close the blade some I suppose. What were MATs like? Power's going to fall as you make runs because of heat. There are so many factors it's crazy.

Is there a scan file you can post with good data logged channels?

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by radz28

Was the throttle staying open for the retesting? If you were close to torque limits to start with, increasing air flow might push the ECM over the edge in torque and maybe could close the blade some I suppose. What were MATs like? Power's going to fall as you make runs because of heat. There are so many factors it's crazy.

Is there a scan file you can post with good data logged channels?

100%. Comparisons between different dynos, ESPECIALLY different kinds of dynos (Mustang vs Dynojet for example), can lead to very significant differences in final numbers. Even loading the car on the dyno drum slightly off can throw torque numbers off by a wide margin. The question is: how does the car perform?

Kudos to Patriot Motorsports USA for giving us the other side of the story and offering to help.

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by radz28

Was the throttle staying open for the retesting? If you were close to torque limits to start with, increasing air flow might push the ECM over the edge in torque and maybe could close the blade some I suppose. What were MATs like? Power's going to fall as you make runs because of heat. There are so many factors it's crazy.

Is there a scan file you can post with good data logged channels?

Great Call!! I just called my Brother to see if he has the logs from the dyno session with this car and he thinks he might... but he's actually at AMP testing and tuning a GT3RS 992.1 with multiple switchable on the fly maps. So, at $1500/hr, he said, "I'll get back to you..."

I want to know from Toto... who tuned the car? If it made less power, was that with the new Tuner's changes? Might want to reinstall our base and work from there.

[djctoto]

Originally Posted by Patriot Motorsports USA

Dan... you should at least back up the speculation with true results. OH WAIT... YOU WERE THERE IN THE SHOP WATCHING US DYNO YOUR CAR!. How can you insist that the chart I gave you was SUSPECT? You took your own photos and we backed it all up the next day at Road Atlanta, which you did so on a set of wheels & tires I provided for you at no cost... as well as the set of tires I paid for, to drive the car home since the aftermarket Camaro SS wheels your car was purchased with were 12-20 pounds per wheel heavier than stock ZLE wheels.

If you wanted a chart, you should have asked my Brother to send you the file. We were all there taking pics and made numerous pulls, which you witnessed each and every one of them. No Hocus Pocus, just data in and results out!

How is the low peak torque suspect..? My car with the stock cam and using the proper tuning by a seasoned professional make 800+lb/ft of torque at 2360rpm. Clearly the MAMO throttle body also adds a steep degree of complexity and was that also factored into the tuning? Several people I have spoken with have issues with these throttle bodies... might want to look there.

When you go with a larger throttle body, you affect the velocity of the air and the calibrations of such, did you change the airbox? Did you factor the stock exhaust helps build low-end torque and headers are great for upper RPM breathing?

In your area of Connecticut & New Hampshire, your Winter Fuel blend has more butane to increase the Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) in an effort to aid in cold starts. In freezing temps this is great but in a shop on a dyno or driving the car hard it most definitely will cause issues. If you're using a 30% blend of Pump E85, note that fuel is blended with 87octane not 93oct. So any tuning would most likely see a pulling of timing due to knock sensors and coilpacks showing a shorter dwell time for discharge. Did your tuner compensate for this as well? I hate to have to do all the homework for your tuner to solve your problems in just a poor understanding of what really works.

We use a Mustang Load-Based Dyno in our shop, so our numbers are typically on the low side compared to a hub or inertia DynoJet which are about 12-15% higher.

My apologies you are unhappy with your tuning results. My brother's skills are unmatched in this realm and that's why he focuses on tuning for manufacturers, pre-production prototype tuning and racing sanctioning bodies for their spec-ECUs. You had the opportunity to bring it back here... just LMK!

Just some clarifications on this.

Yes I was there and did request an actual dyno plot which I was told would be sent to me but never came. The only data I got was the photo or the screen shot which I referenced.

Secondly I'm not complaining about the real results that were just achieved and fully documented. In fact I'm quite happy with them and believe they represent what should be expected from the car with the modifications done to it.

Third you have no idea where I sourced the E85 that was used in the mix to achieve the 30% ethanol content in the car. You just assumed it was pump E85 to support your arguments. It was in fact Ignite orange which is designed for high-performance engines needing reliable, high-octane fuel. It typically boasts an octane rating of 100-105.

You're once again wrong in suggesting I went with a larger throttle body. It is in fact simply a ported OEM throttle body at 87mm designed to provide improvements in drivability and other weaknesses found with the stock unit as found by virtually anyone who has installed one.
Direct bolt on "plug and play" solution that does not require tuning or PCM calibration work to provide the following benefits:

From Tony Mamo's site.
Removal of the dreaded off-idle flat spot (very noticeable in manual trans cars and still present in automatics as well)
Much more throttle response at every throttle position but notably better in the lower throttle are you spend most of your time driving
The throttle is much more linear now and more intuitive.....tip in throttle as you roll into it is also much sharper
Increased HP and increased TQ across the board (12-15 RWTQ and 12-15 RWHP)

I can't support the claims about increased HP and TRQ because I never did an immediate dyno comparison, however the rest of the benefits were immediately noticeable.

But you've never used one so how would you know?

I don't doubt your brothers competency.

I do doubt your repeated and exaggerated claims that the engine in my car as came from your shop made close to 700wrhp and over 700 wftlbs of torque.

Therefore your inaccurate claims and assumptions makes you the last person to do homework for anyone.

Lastly I spent in inordinate amount of time and money with Patriot Motorsports only to receive a car several months later than promised with all the excuses that went with it along with several problems that I've since
corrected.

Did I mention that the right before I picked the car for the 1500 mile return trip home it had your recommended alignment which included -3.6 degrees of camber in the front.

Anyone with half a brain knowing the car was going to be highway driven for 1500 miles would realize the front tires would be junk after a trip of this magnitude.

Speaking of tires you did supply a used set of tires for me at Road Atlanta but never delivered on a brand new set of Goodyear SC3R's that I paid you for but never received with documentation to show. And the tires you supplied for the ride home were a mismatched set front and rear at about 1/3 the cost of the SC3R's that I never got.

I could provide hard evidence of numerous other instances were I was cheated and mislead by yourself so spare me your offers to help. It's useless !

The reason for my post is to illustrate to others of the real danger in doing business with you and Patriot Motorsports and all the BS that goes along with it. I would never do business with Patriot Motorsports again so you must be insane given all that has transpired to think I'd bring the car back to you again.

I love the car, feel lucky that it survived its ordeal with you and hope others can decide for themselves.

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by djctoto

Just some clarifications on this.

Yes I was there and did request an actual dyno plot which I was told would be sent to me but never came. The only data I got was the photo or the screen shot which I referenced.

Secondly I'm not complaining about the real results that were just achieved and fully documented. In fact I'm quite happy with them and believe they represent what should be expected from the car with the modifications done to it.

Wait... In your first sentence you say you did not get a dyno plot and yet, this is the first time I have ever heard a word that you wanted one since you were there taking photos of it. You can email my brother, he will send it to you... he still has it. So your still unnamed tuner can see where you are changing the standard yet holding us accountable for your lack of similar power you agreed "was well documented", as you were there, we all took photos.

Originally Posted by djctoto

Third you have no idea where I sourced the E85 that was used in the mix to achieve the 30% ethanol content in the car. You just assumed it was pump E85 to support your arguments. It was in fact Ignite orange which is designed for high-performance engines needing reliable, high-octane fuel. It typically boasts an octane rating of 100-105.

Now we are finally getting somewhere... and here we go!!

You are aware that using a higher RON Octane suppresses detonation with diminishable returns. At the point where that detonation suppression no longer helps, it reduces the fuel's volatility to resist detonation it does not make more power UNLESS the timing is changed with subsequent fueling. While higher octane fuels, ethanol enriched or not, are chemically more stable to prevent auto-ignition/pre-ignition, they do not inherently require more time to complete their combustion cycle. This is key because that higher octane you boast about is actually hurting the torque output by delaying when the combustion process happens. You probably do not know this but I built and raced 2-stroke outboard boats for decades and my Father who has the patents on Phenol, Methanol and Acetone taught me how to blend fuels. So this is way deep in my Wheelhouse. Again, I can only assume what fuel you used because you provided ZERO details as to the source, type and ambient conditions to which this Dyno session in question took place. I prefer Shell 93oct mixed with the local Racetrac (RT) E85 to a 30-40% blend on the track. The higher 9.1-9.8 Reid Vapor Pressure of the Shell93 with RT-E85 vs your Ignite Orange E85 at 4.2-5.1RVP WITH the Ethanol Blended with whatever is calculated in my tuning and it was also done when running your car on the dyno. My fuel combo when put under boost and load will light-off like a torpedo hit Iranian ship but has the Ethanol blanket to ride out a perfect flame propagation across the piston and out the valves with zero detonation... a point very well proven day after day on the track and over 11 months on the same set of Brisk Silvers with zero detonation.

Originally Posted by djctoto

You're once again wrong in suggesting I went with a larger throttle body. It is in fact simply a ported OEM throttle body at 87mm designed to provide improvements in drivability and other weaknesses found with the stock unit as found by virtually anyone who has installed one.
Direct bolt on "plug and play" solution that does not require tuning or PCM calibration work to provide the following benefits:

From Tony Mamo's site.
Removal of the dreaded off-idle flat spot (very noticeable in manual trans cars and still present in automatics as well)
Much more throttle response at every throttle position but notably better in the lower throttle are you spend most of your time driving
The throttle is much more linear now and more intuitive.....tip in throttle as you roll into it is also much sharper
Increased HP and increased TQ across the board (12-15 RWTQ and 12-15 RWHP)

I can't support the claims about increased HP and TRQ because I never did an immediate dyno comparison, however the rest of the benefits were immediately noticeable.

But you've never used one so how would you know?

Once again, an unknown value that while Tony has hundreds of satisfied customers and clearly you are one of them... there are equally as many people who can say the opposite with swapping the throttle body out. Its the reason alone, "why mess with it...?" My car is reliable and makes more power than I can drive at the limit. When you start messing with the throttle body, you begin altering how the PTM calibration interacts with pulling power on so many levels. I would rather not mess with it.

Originally Posted by djctoto

I don't doubt your brothers competency.

I do doubt your repeated and exaggerated claims that the engine in my car as came from your shop made close to 700wrhp and over 700 wftlbs of torque.

Therefore your inaccurate claims and assumptions makes you the last person to do homework for anyone.

Good thing... you shouldn't. Your car could actually have made a lot more power. Doug was going to push it over the top, but since its a Customer's Car, it got a "Buffer Tune" with a respectable "safety zone" of power. Every shop does this, it should not be news but sure... call me inaccurate cause it did "MAKE Close to 700whp and if DID make OVER 700wLb/Ft of torque."

Originally Posted by djctoto

Lastly I spent in inordinate amount of time and money with Patriot Motorsports only to receive a car several months later than promised with all the excuses that went with it along with several problems that I've since
corrected.

(1) Did I mention that the right before I picked the car for the 1500 mile return trip home it had your recommended alignment which included -3.6 degrees of camber in the front.

Anyone with half a brain knowing the car was going to be highway driven for 1500 miles would realize the front tires would be junk after a trip of this magnitude.

(2) Speaking of tires you did supply a used set of tires for me at Road Atlanta but never delivered on a brand new set of Goodyear SC3R's that I paid you for but never received with documentation to show. And the tires you supplied for the ride home were a mismatched set front and rear at about 1/3 the cost of the SC3R's that I never got.

(3) I could provide hard evidence of numerous other instances were I was cheated and mislead by yourself so spare me your offers to help. It's useless !

The reason for my post is to illustrate to others of the real danger in doing business with you and Patriot Motorsports and all the BS that goes along with it. I would never do business with Patriot Motorsports again so you must be insane given all that has transpired to think I'd bring the car back to you again.

I love the car, feel lucky that it survived its ordeal with you and hope others can decide for themselves.

(1)Your car has a wrecked history on the CarFax as it hit a ditch as speed enough to need and entire front end... the dealer disclosed this to you. I picked it up from the dealer in three feet of snow in some God-Forsaken place up North where they couldn't drive it to even test their alignment with the wrong offset Camaro SS 20" wheels. The -3.6º was your initial reading, not the final which was a dead-balls-accurate -2.7º both left & right with zero toe in the front. You had -2º rear with zero perfect thrust angle. I asked you if you wanted the struts spun to street alignment but you declined as your plan was to take the Tail of the Dragon and Smokey Mountain route heading North. The same route I have made in my car all the way to Rochester, NY & Back without cording my tires.

(2) The Brand New Set of GY SC3Rs were in my trailer, but if you recall it was raining on the first half of the Road Atlanta session... so we jacked up my ZLE and I gave you MY wheels and tires so you could drive on the track in the rain to learn the car at a safe slower pace and not on slicks. The front tires were brand new Kumho PS91s which are a carbon copy of the Michelin PS4S which were on the rear and less than two months old which you burned up the rears at Road Atlanta and why I replaced them with two brand new rear Continental Extreme Contact 02S tires for your ride home, a cost of $1200 plus the $250 Alignment that day and the Kumho PS91s that cost another $950 just a couple weeks earlier. Quite a stretch to claim "1/3 the cost of SC3Rs you never got."

(3) Right now you've skewed the results by not including pertinent information, changed the context of how the results were obtained, blamed me for making MORE power, yet clearly I am not transparent enough to share data you already have. So you say I was wasting your time, yet we delivered your car as agreed 30 days EARLIER than originally planned. See your email with the track dates in JUNE you wanted to attend and the photo of your departure... You cut the entire build practically a month early, yet we made it happen. Maybe you forget these details but I am an Engineer by Trade and a lifetime of detailed records like your email below spells the truth... we delivered!!

You must have forgot the dozens of hours of free labor, the transporting of your car at no charge from our shop in South Carolina 10 hours round trip plus the extra oil changes, fluids and more we provided at no cost. Yeah, there was never a bill for all the fuel we used tuning or at the track. So all I can come up with right now is maybe you just NEED A BIG HUG!!



Just so I am being perfectly clear... We had this car just over a month during the Winter and Dan had zero issues with the car being at our shop for the Winter, with the target date set for May 30th-ish, due to roads, weather and his plan to drive it home to Connecticut from South Carolina via mountain pass roads, not the Interstates. This video below was published within a month of us picking up the car, completing just the basic cooling upgrades and he was ecstatic! My Fiancé Jeni had just broken her leg requiring $250K in surgeries & orthopedic visits, we had other vehicles to prepare as well as my own for GridLife Track Battle. We delivered his car actually EARLY per schedule the first week in May. Dan is pissed that our use of a third-party to buy ARH headers at a discount ended up back-firing as that vendor could not produce the five sets we bought within a scheduled time period. No fault of ARH's just ours being duped by a third party which delayed the headers to Dan.

Watch the video... does he seem the least bit upset with his experience? Did we not offer great customer service? Things haven't been great lately... but I will not be E-Bullied with someone with an Axe to grind with half-truths and speculation. from bad data.

[djctoto]

Originally Posted by Patriot Motorsports USA

Wait... In your first sentence you say you did not get a dyno plot and yet, this is the first time I have ever heard a word that you wanted one since you were there taking photos of it. You can email my brother, he will send it to you... he still has it. So your still unnamed tuner can see where you are changing the standard yet holding us accountable for your lack of similar power you agreed "was well documented", as you were there, we all took photos.



Now we are finally getting somewhere... and here we go!!

You are aware that using a higher RON Octane suppresses detonation with diminishable returns. At the point where that detonation suppression no longer helps, it reduces the fuel's volatility to resist detonation it does not make more power UNLESS the timing is changed with subsequent fueling. While higher octane fuels, ethanol enriched or not, are chemically more stable to prevent auto-ignition/pre-ignition, they do not inherently require more time to complete their combustion cycle. This is key because that higher octane you boast about is actually hurting the torque output by delaying when the combustion process happens. You probably do not know this but I built and raced 2-stroke outboard boats for decades and my Father who has the patents on Phenol, Methanol and Acetone taught me how to blend fuels. So this is way deep in my Wheelhouse. Again, I can only assume what fuel you used because you provided ZERO details as to the source, type and ambient conditions to which this Dyno session in question took place. I prefer Shell 93oct mixed with the local Racetrac (RT) E85 to a 30-40% blend on the track. The higher 9.1-9.8 Reid Vapor Pressure of the Shell93 with RT-E85 vs your Ignite Orange E85 at 4.2-5.1RVP WITH the Ethanol Blended with whatever is calculated in my tuning and it was also done when running your car on the dyno. My fuel combo when put under boost and load will light-off like a torpedo hit Iranian ship but has the Ethanol blanket to ride out a perfect flame propagation across the piston and out the valves with zero detonation... a point very well proven day after day on the track and over 11 months on the same set of Brisk Silvers with zero detonation.



Once again, an unknown value that while Tony has hundreds of satisfied customers and clearly you are one of them... there are equally as many people who can say the opposite with swapping the throttle body out. Its the reason alone, "why mess with it...?" My car is reliable and makes more power than I can drive at the limit. When you start messing with the throttle body, you begin altering how the PTM calibration interacts with pulling power on so many levels. I would rather not mess with it.



Good thing... you shouldn't. Your car could actually have made a lot more power. Doug was going to push it over the top, but since its a Customer's Car, it got a "Buffer Tune" with a respectable "safety zone" of power. Every shop does this, it should not be news but sure... call me inaccurate cause it did "MAKE Close to 700whp and if DID make OVER 700wLb/Ft of torque."

[/COLOR]

(1)Your car has a wrecked history on the CarFax as it hit a ditch as speed enough to need and entire front end... the dealer disclosed this to you. I picked it up from the dealer in three feet of snow in some God-Forsaken place up North where they couldn't drive it to even test their alignment with the wrong offset Camaro SS 20" wheels. The -3.6º was your initial reading, not the final which was a dead-balls-accurate -2.7º both left & right with zero toe in the front. You had -2º rear with zero perfect thrust angle. I asked you if you wanted the struts spun to street alignment but you declined as your plan was to take the Tail of the Dragon and Smokey Mountain route heading North. The same route I have made in my car all the way to Rochester, NY & Back without cording my tires.

(2) The Brand New Set of GY SC3Rs were in my trailer, but if you recall it was raining on the first half of the Road Atlanta session... so we jacked up my ZLE and I gave you MY wheels and tires so you could drive on the track in the rain to learn the car at a safe slower pace and not on slicks. The front tires were brand new Kumho PS91s which are a carbon copy of the Michelin PS4S which were on the rear and less than two months old which you burned up the rears at Road Atlanta and why I replaced them with two brand new rear Continental Extreme Contact 02S tires for your ride home, a cost of $1200 plus the $250 Alignment that day and the Kumho PS91s that cost another $950 just a couple weeks earlier. Quite a stretch to claim "1/3 the cost of SC3Rs you never got."

(3) Right now you've skewed the results by not including pertinent information, changed the context of how the results were obtained, blamed me for making MORE power, yet clearly I am not transparent enough to share data you already have. So you say I was wasting your time, yet we delivered your car as agreed 30 days EARLIER than originally planned. See your email with the track dates in JUNE you wanted to attend and the photo of your departure... You cut the entire build practically a month early, yet we made it happen. Maybe you forget these details but I am an Engineer by Trade and a lifetime of detailed records like your email below spells the truth... we delivered!!

You must have forgot the dozens of hours of free labor, the transporting of your car at no charge from our shop in South Carolina 10 hours round trip plus the extra oil changes, fluids and more we provided at no cost. Yeah, there was never a bill for all the fuel we used tuning or at the track. So all I can come up with right now is maybe you just NEED A BIG HUG!!



Just so I am being perfectly clear... We had this car just over a month during the Winter and Dan had zero issues with the car being at our shop for the Winter, with the target date set for May 30th-ish, due to roads, weather and his plan to drive it home to Connecticut from South Carolina via mountain pass roads, not the Interstates. This video below was published within a month of us picking up the car, completing just the basic cooling upgrades and he was ecstatic! My Fiancé Jeni had just broken her leg requiring $250K in surgeries & orthopedic visits, we had other vehicles to prepare as well as my own for GridLife Track Battle. We delivered his car actually EARLY per schedule the first week in May. Dan is pissed that our use of a third-party to buy ARH headers at a discount ended up back-firing as that vendor could not produce the five sets we bought within a scheduled time period. No fault of ARH's just ours being duped by a third party which delayed the headers to Dan.

Watch the video... does he seem the least bit upset with his experience? Did we not offer great customer service? Things haven't been great lately... but I will not be E-Bullied with someone with an Axe to grind with half-truths and speculation. from bad data.

So many mistruths and misleading comments I don't know where to begin but lets me try and encapsulate my experience with Patriot Motorsports.

This is absolutely the first time I've learned that the car "hit a ditch at speed enough to need and entire front end... the dealer disclosed this to you."

There was a car fax note about damage reported on 11/07/2024 neither David nor the dealer ever disclosed to me the nature of the incident. David was only enthusiastic about the Anderson Carbon Fiber front end pieces that replace the originals and never the reason why.

Above David stated
"The -3.6º was your initial reading, not the final which was a dead-balls-accurate -2.7º both left & right with zero toe in the front."

This is absolute BS.
When I arrived home I found the inner front tire on the DS had worn down to the cords. I took the car the one of the best alignment shops in the NE. Fasttrack Automototive in Peabody MA. well know and respected by racers and anyone with a high performance vehicle.
As standard procedure Scott the owner does a before measurement before making any changes and found the front camber on the DS to be -3.6 degrees and the PS slightly less.
He keeps records anyone is free to call him at 978-977-0707 and ask for the before alignment specs for a 2019 Camaro ZL1 brought into him in the June 2025 time frame. Scott was shocked to learn that the car had this alignment knowing it was going to be street driven for any length of time.

David stated above "We delivered his car actually EARLY per schedule the first week in May."

This is more BS he picked up my car and had it back to his shop by the end of Jan 2025. His told me the work he would be performing including the installation of the headers and exhaust would take 3-4 weeks. Then one excuse after another came. Mainly the availability of headers from ARH so I told him to complete the car without installing them as the season is short in the NE and I'd deal with the headers later which I did. Originally David had suggested he would deliver the car but this quickly evaporated.

David commented above
"Dan is pissed that our use of a third-party to buy ARH headers at a discount ended up back-firing as that vendor could not produce the five sets we bought within a scheduled time period. No fault of ARH's just ours being duped by a third party which delayed the headers to Dan."

Again more BS he told me specifically that ARH was at fault due to running production on other products and it was their delivery issue.


Below is the message, still trying to keep it civil I sent to David expressing my dissatisfaction and requesting a firm date for delivery or p/u of the car. The April target for completion was already significantly later than promised.

On Wed, Mar 26, 2025, 9:40 PM Dan Croteau <daniel.croteau@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi David.
I understand the situation in that you're waiting on suppliers and appreciate all the efforts that you're putting into and have put into my car.
Likewise I'm hoping that you can understand that it's not comfortable for me to leave the car with you for an undefined amount of time as the driving season in the Northeast is short and has already opened up at some of the tracks in the region
You mentioned when we last spoke that it was unlikely that I'd have the car back by the first week of May. While I was under the impression that our initial target was the middle or end of April.
If I'm mistaken then my apologies but I'd still like to work with you to come up with a plan that would enable me to have the car back on or before the end of May. By then you'll have had the car for close to 4 months, (Feb, March, April & May) which is a decent amount of time and more than what I was hoping or expecting. My hope is that you'll be able to accomplish most of what you were planning on doing by then with perhaps the exception of the exhaust. If I have to fly in and drive it home I can do this or if it works for you to deliver it and get some track days in up this way with me, that would be great. Either way I'd ask that you provided me with your suggestion on how we can proceed along with a date that we can schedule to make it happen.
I'm sorry if this makes things more difficult for you but I hope you can appreciate that it doesn't make sense for me to leave getting my car back on some undefined / unscheduled date in the future. You should know that I'm not opposed to getting the car back to you again in the fall if needed.
Give it some thought, talk it over with Jennifer, see what you come up with and let's plan on talking sometime this weekend to come to an arrangement that'll work best for both of us.
Let me know what day & time works for you and I'll plan on it
Thanks and regards,
Dan

I finally pinned a date to pick the car up and drive it home the end of May 2025. By this time David and Patriot Motorsports had my car for 4 MONTHS to perform work that was suppose to take 4 WEEKS.

Another SPIN by David
"Watch the video... does he seem the least bit upset with his experience? Did we not offer great customer service? Things haven't been great lately... but I will not be E-Bullied with someone with an Axe to grind with half-truths and speculation. from bad data."

The video was made after I'd driven a ZL1-1LE on the track for the first time, before my car was being used by Patriot Motorsports for promotion of their business with no delivery commitment. He calls it great service when it took him 4 months to do 4 weeks of work and then only has the car ready after a delivery pick date up is demanded.

Regarding his final comment.
"Things haven't been great lately... but I will not be E-Bullied with someone with an Axe to grind with half-truths and speculation. from bad data."

The last comments I'll make on this subject is David is both charismatic and the ultimate salesperson. He can spin a story, deflect blame and play on honest peoples compassion with all sorts of excuses.

But the reality is there is way more that goes on under the surface that I could elaborate on that would expose the truth about him and Patriot Motorsports USA. I've had bad experiences in my past in dealing with service providers but I've never felt so compelled to attempt to warn others about doing business with them.

No futher comments to follow. But the truth will eventually come out.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by djctoto

Letting the results and data supplied to me speak for them self.

After spending approximately $15K with Patriot Motorsports USA to have them perform a numbers of modifications including tuning on my 2019 ZL1-1LE I witnessed a dyno run and was provided with the following screen shot as the only data. This was done with an Ethanol mix at E30.

No Actual Graph was provided and the peak torque value at 2865 rpm is suspect.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pMo...usp=drive_link

After the addition / installation of 2" ARH headers their 3" x-pipe / long system, the removal of cats. And adding a MAMO blueprinted throttle body I then had the car re-tuned, no other changes were made and received the following data:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cIH...usp=drive_link

Comparing the e30 results:
Patriot Motorsports Max HP 661 @ 4862 rpm Max Trg 753 @ 2865 rpm
New Dyno Results Max HP 654 @ 6227 rpm Max Trq 663 @ 3598 rpm
Delta Max HP -7 HP Max Trq -90

Again the data shows that the actual results from Patriot Motorsports that I received. Even with the differences from Dyno to Dyno how is it possible that my engine produced -90 ftlbs of torque to the wheels after the addition of ARH 2" Headers along with the removal of CATs and the addition of a 3" x-pipe and long system into the same stock suitcase muffler.

My only guess the screen shot provided by Patriot Motorsports is flawed somehow? Buyers beware is all I can offer.

Something's not right.

Looking at my past dynos, max torque was at 4080, 5400, 4522, 4400, and 4210,

I'm pretty sure everyone here would have expected all your numbers to improve somewhat.

[djctoto]

Originally Posted by JSH

Something's not right.

Looking at my past dynos, max torque was at 4080, 5400, 4522, 4400, and 4210,

I'm pretty sure everyone here would have expected all your numbers to improve somewhat.

Exactly... I expected them to improve as well but when the original results are inaccurate its easy to understand why they did not.

And I'm not at all dissatisfied with what I now have. I'm planning on running the car as is this year to get further seat time and acclimated to it then upgrading the DI system next season.

I'm planning on using Griffin Motorsports Katech + XDI Direct Injection Fuel System Bundle after speaking with Gabe there about the best option for my car and use.

[NG329]

Originally Posted by JSH

Something's not right.

Looking at my past dynos, max torque was at 4080, 5400, 4522, 4400, and 4210,

I'm pretty sure everyone here would have expected all your numbers to improve somewhat.

Mustang dynos read lower. It's a known fact.

Either way, airing this out on a public forum is not a good look for both parties. Probably best to take it offline.