[65ffr]

Just wanted to say thanks for posting the resolution. So many times we don't get that.

[Dynamical]

So if these transmissions only tolerate .3 overfill what’s the tolerance underfilled .3also? Lol that’s not much room for error especially when including the pita GM procedure it is to do the job. Like king said we used to overfill our 4l60s to sooth that flare. Mine used to bounce and adding extra fluid made it good.
So draining the .3 out fixed it or did the tune help fix it too? Sorry if I missed that.

[ZLRob]

Originally Posted by 65ffr

Just wanted to say thanks for posting the resolution. So many times we don't get that.

No problem. Just want to help the community get some clarity. I super agree though, It drives me nuts on forums. No one follows up, I always appreciate it greatly when someone does.

Originally Posted by Dynamical

So if these transmissions only tolerate .3 overfill what’s the tolerance underfilled .3also? Lol that’s not much room for error especially when including the pita GM procedure it is to do the job. Like king said we used to overfill our 4l60s to sooth that flare. Mine used to bounce and adding extra fluid made it good.
So draining the .3 out fixed it or did the tune help fix it too? Sorry if I missed that.

No the issues were progressively getting more prominent even after the TCM tune.


I think going through the entire tune PCM/ TCM really starting bringing out a lot of the demons the car has been sitting on for a while but I just never really noticed, because I don't tend to drive it the way it needs to be driven to dial it in.

[djctoto]

Thanks for posting your solution good to hear.

It sounds like we had the same problem as mine was shifting very erratically.

I drained out almost a quart overfill from a service performed by Patriot Motorsports USA.

Its ironic because they created a video from it based on info they found for filling some kind of A10 crate transmission.

Guess you can't believe everything you see on YouTube and/or claims that a shop might make !

[ZLRob]

Originally Posted by djctoto

Thanks for posting your solution good to hear.

It sounds like we had the same problem as mine was shifting very erratically.

I drained out almost a quart overfill from a service performed by Patriot Motorsports USA.

Its ironic because they created a video from it based on info they found for filling some kind of A10 crate transmission.

Guess you can't believe everything you see on YouTube and/or claims that a shop might make !

Oh wow. Seriously? There isn't a sighing face I can make here to show the disappointment I have in David for that one. He has access to this information, so based on your year he could have easily pulled up what temperature your transmission temp check called for.

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by ZLRob

Oh wow. Seriously? There isn't a sighing face I can make here to show the disappointment I have in David for that one. He has access to this information, so based on your year he could have easily pulled up what temperature your transmission temp check called for.

The information is being taken out of context. If the transmission was a "quart" overfilled, at what point was it being measured? What temperature? Was the engine running and the car leveled in park when you measured this added quart?

From the GM Performance instructions specific to the ZLE A10 transmission the side plug is the defining level of an A10 fluid capacity when the vehicle is perfectly level, idling in gear after the gear selector has made a pass from Park, reverse to drive and then idling. Using this method negates the model year pan specific stand pipe as it gives the proper level every time. The stand-pipe method is simply there to allow GM Technicians a faster way to fluid check/fill the transmission and not get burned by hot Cats in close proximity to the actual fill plug.

With 37,000 total miles, 14,630 miles on track using this method and the Amsoil Fuel Efficient "Blue Cap" ATF with zero issues with my ZLE, I'm going to go with user error on jack stands as my goto on why "an extra quart" is being questioned.

See the attached GM documents pertaining specifically to the A10 "Supermatic" used in the ZLE applications.

Hope this clears the misunderstandings.

[djctoto]

Originally Posted by Patriot Motorsports USA

The information is being taken out of context. If the transmission was a "quart" overfilled, at what point was it being measured? What temperature? Was the engine running and the car leveled in park when you measured this added quart?

Nothing has been taken out of context.

It's hard to believe your providing this level of misinformation when in your video, link provided below.


You're using a procedure as Quoted in your video for a street rod package.

"After scouring the internet for information about how to change the ZLE's A10 transmission fluid, I stumbled upon the installation instructions for the ‪@GeneralMotors‬ Performance Catalog installation instructions for the LT4/A10 street-rod crate package."


The overfill was measured using the exact procedure as recommended for the Zl1-1LE by GM with the engine running, the car perfectly level and the transmission fluid temp at 207 degrees F which is exactly in the middle of the recommended temp range with the fluid temperature between 203 degrees F and 212 degrees F as measured by the I Banks gauge from the CAN buss / factory sensor.

Although your car's transmission may not experience issues, mine came from your shop with the fluid overfilled by 1 quart after having the transmission fluid flushed and was shifting erratically on track.

After I checked and refilled the level per GM's procedure for the 1LE it has had no further shifting issue.

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by djctoto

Nothing has been taken out of context.

It's hard to believe your providing this level of misinformation when in your video, link provided below.

You're using a procedure as Quoted in your video for a street rod package.

"After scouring the internet for information about how to change the ZLE's A10 transmission fluid, I stumbled upon the installation instructions for the ‪@GeneralMotors‬ Performance Catalog installation instructions for the LT4/A10 street-rod crate package."


The overfill was measured using the exact procedure as recommended for the Zl1-1LE by GM with the engine running, the car perfectly level and the transmission fluid temp at 207 degrees F which is exactly in the middle of the recommended temp range with the fluid temperature between 203 degrees F and 212 degrees F as measured by the I Banks gauge from the CAN buss / factory sensor.

Although your car's transmission may not experience issues, mine came from your shop with the fluid overfilled by 1 quart after having the transmission fluid flushed and was shifting erratically on track.

After I checked and refilled the level per GM's procedure for the 1LE it has had no further shifting issue.

Once again... you are wrong and spreading more mis-information.

The publication I shared was the means to access, check and change the fluid in the ZLE A10 Camaro. YES, indeed this is a publication for the exact same transmission that is kitted for Hot-Rods, race cars and whatever your dreams could come up with... including full-blown drag cars running 8's in the quarter mile right now in a friend's Cadillac. The ONLY difference is these come with a slip yoke tailshaft from the Tahoe PPV instead of the flanged rubber donut design... that's it! As a GM Supermatic transmission, it still matches the fluid level of the ZLE.

Now... lets address the other misinformation you shared.

The thermostatic level begins to open at 140º internally and will be fully open by 170º. My transmission never exceeds 200º on the track in traffic... a fact you witnessed riding in my car it was at 169º at Road Atlanta on a full blast session and 165mph on the back straight! SO... if you are allowing your transmission to heat up by whatever means you did to get it there, you are creating your own problem by using the wrong info you shared of the thermal range.

As an FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) Certified Engineer with 20 years of experience in developing hydraulic systems for Dassault-Falcon, Bombardier, Gulfstream and other contracts with Lockheed-Martin on the AH64 & UH60 helicopters... your heated 13-14 total quarts of fluid at 207º will have an expansion rate of 2.3-3.1oz/quart over the target temperature listed by the manufacturer. That roughly equals... ONE QUART Overfilled.

Review the document below... if you are getting erratic shifting then it is almost always due to the fluid getting air in it and if you are racing on Club Motorsports track with lots of elevation changes, you will get this if the fluid is NOT at the high level of the range. Aerated fluid will cavitate the pump and create foam inside which is the direct reason for "erratic shifting." I remedied this issue by moving my transmission cooler to the passenger side, reversing the flowpath to cool the transmission directly from the cooler instead of from the eLSD and with a higher volume, at a higher mounting location than the pan's fluid level. I learned this issue from full-throttle pulls under the bridge at turn-11 at Road Atlanta pulling -Gs and monitoring transmission command/actual pressure logs. This is where the difference lies between those who sell parts to those who actually develop solutions.

I am sorry you are having issues with your car, but if you continue to follow what the 98% Majority of ZLE owners who have virtually ZERO actual road course track experience and offering their drag-racing background mentality, I will always be WRONG. I have YET to see ONE ZLE on the track other than Jeremy Lowder's Pikes Peak car (that I also built the cooling systems for) go faster than my car for the endurance of a full 30 minute session flat out. I'm always available for a call if you have questions about your car.

[djctoto]

Originally Posted by Patriot Motorsports USA

Once again... you are wrong and spreading more mis-information.

The publication I shared was the means to access, check and change the fluid in the ZLE A10 Camaro. YES, indeed this is a publication for the exact same transmission that is kitted for Hot-Rods, race cars and whatever your dreams could come up with... including full-blown drag cars running 8's in the quarter mile right now in a friend's Cadillac. The ONLY difference is these come with a slip yoke tailshaft from the Tahoe PPV instead of the flanged rubber donut design... that's it! As a GM Supermatic transmission, it still matches the fluid level of the ZLE.

Now... lets address the other misinformation you shared.

The thermostatic level begins to open at 140º internally and will be fully open by 170º. My transmission never exceeds 200º on the track in traffic... a fact you witnessed riding in my car it was at 169º at Road Atlanta on a full blast session and 165mph on the back straight! SO... if you are allowing your transmission to heat up by whatever means you did to get it there, you are creating your own problem by using the wrong info you shared of the thermal range.

As an FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) Certified Engineer with 20 years of experience in developing hydraulic systems for Dassault-Falcon, Bombardier, Gulfstream and other contracts with Lockheed-Martin on the AH64 & UH60 helicopters... your heated 13-14 total quarts of fluid at 207º will have an expansion rate of 2.3-3.1oz/quart over the target temperature listed by the manufacturer. That roughly equals... ONE QUART Overfilled.

Review the document below... if you are getting erratic shifting then it is almost always due to the fluid getting air in it and if you are racing on Club Motorsports track with lots of elevation changes, you will get this if the fluid is NOT at the high level of the range. Aerated fluid will cavitate the pump and create foam inside which is the direct reason for "erratic shifting." I remedied this issue by moving my transmission cooler to the passenger side, reversing the flowpath to cool the transmission directly from the cooler instead of from the eLSD and with a higher volume, at a higher mounting location than the pan's fluid level. I learned this issue from full-throttle pulls under the bridge at turn-11 at Road Atlanta pulling -Gs and monitoring transmission command/actual pressure logs. This is where the difference lies between those who sell parts to those who actually develop solutions.

I am sorry you are having issues with your car, but if you continue to follow what the 98% Majority of ZLE owners who have virtually ZERO actual road course track experience and offering their drag-racing background mentality, I will always be WRONG. I have YET to see ONE ZLE on the track other than Jeremy Lowder's Pikes Peak car (that I also built the cooling systems for) go faster than my car for the endurance of a full 30 minute session flat out. I'm always available for a call if you have questions about your car.

You can spin it anyway you want. But the facts remain.

>When my car left your shop the transmission was shifting erratically on track.

>The fluid level was then checked per GM's procedure for the ZL1 - 1LE and found to be overfilled.

>The fluid was then filled to the correct amount per GM's procedure for the ZL1 - 1LE

>Since doing so no further shifting issues have occurred.

> I would not trust my car to have any work performed on it by Patriot Motorsports in the future.

> The overfill was just one example of poor workmanship. Another example was that of braided transmission line that was installed and run within a fraction of an inch from the catalytic converter on the drivers side. After running the car I did a routine inspection and found the hose was almost completely melted due to poor routing and heat shielding. Transmission fluid is flammable and had I not caught this oversight the car could have gone up in flames.

No car I own will ever be in the hands of Patriot Motorsports again and I would not solicit any advise that they may offer for fear of it's inaccuracy.

No further debate will follow.

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by djctoto

You can spin it anyway you want. But the facts remain.

Please share the document from GM that specifically tells the Technician the procedure to raise the transmission temp to 50º over its operational temperature.

I backed up my post with facts. No Spin. Specifications with accuracy in their implementation equal positive results.

[radz28]

GM probably uses that standpipe for a reason. They're not going to ADD parts unless they find a need to. I'm not sure about that side plug method, because GM engineered a specific pan for our cars and the calibration of our TCM is likely different, so I'd research and go with what you feel like your gut says makes the most sense.

GM has a method for THIS car, with THIS tranny, with THIS controller, using THIS pan. I'm going with that method - not a generic method for a generic application, like a crate tranny is for.

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by radz28

GM probably uses that standpipe for a reason. They're not going to ADD parts unless they find a need to. I'm not sure about that side plug method, because GM engineered a specific pan for our cars and the calibration of our TCM is likely different, so I'd research and go with what you feel like your gut says makes the most sense.

GM has a method for THIS car, with THIS tranny, with THIS controller, using THIS pan. I'm going with that method - not a generic method for a generic application, like a crate tranny is for.

Everything GM does is for a reason... like telling you 0W/20 oil is great, then 5w/30 then 0w/40 after the class-action suits keep coming. Then they use the standpipe to reduce lawsuits by Techs for getting burned by using a plug because of the proximity to the exhaust or the dangers of igniting ATF on a hot exhaust. It makes the process, sure it does... if you have the pump, adapters and all the tools to make it work from a Dealership's perspective.

Copied Directly from GM TSB notifications to Dealers

General Motors (GM) has issued numerous Service Bulletins to address safety risks and technical errors associated with the "bottom-fill" (standpipe) method used on many modern transmissions.

The Standpipe Fill Safety Concerns
The "standpipe" or "bottom-fill" method—used on transmissions like the 8L45, 8L90, 10L80, and 10L90—replaces the traditional dipstick with a tube in the bottom pan. This procedure presents specific safety risks:
Burn Hazard: Technicians must check the fluid while the engine is running and the fluid is at operating temperature (typically between 95°F and 113°F for 8-speeds, or up to 176°F for 10-speeds).

Proximity to Heat: Checking the level requires being under the vehicle near hot exhaust components while hot fluid may "drizzle" or "drip" out of the check plug.

Overfill Fire Risk: GM warned in Service Bulletin 15667 that over-filled transmissions can discharge fluid out of the vent tube, potentially causing a fire and serious bodily injury.

Major GM Transmission Litigation
Regional technician-specific lawsuits for burns:
GM is currently facing massive consumer class-action lawsuits regarding these same transmissions:

End of GM TSB

Not every enthusiast has a shop with a lift, Mity-Vac hooked to an air compressor nor the capability to build the special tools to get the plug out when the trans is being operated on a running car. The REASON I use the side method is because I can insert the Mity-Vac straw into the case, sucking down several quarts of fluid to do my "Gender-Neutral-Shift-Juice" by removing the pan to check it for any wear. I also can fill it while having the standpipe plug open to see it dribbles at the exact time the fluid trickles out the side. I have never said that I am NOT using the standpipe, but I am not using it as the fill, nor extraction point either because I have figured a simpler way most can relate to without buying another full kit of tools.

But if you want to buy the kit to do the fill with the Standpipe, here it is on Amazon.

The problem with these kits is that when you are filling with the car running... you have to guess at the overfill, then waste fluid that costs over $16/quart to let it run down your arm at 150º while trying to get the stupid fitting off the pan to then let it level off. OR... you can do it my way, fill it from the side plug and know if all things like the moon & stars are aligned with temps, leveled car on the lift and birds singing, the ATF level will be just right.

14,630 track miles, 37K miles total on the OEM A10 with zero issues. YUP... seems to be working just fine. Add to that history, two-dozen or so other A10s filled by me with zero history of shifting issues, except one that had an "extra quart" at 50º over the highest operating temp.

[radz28]

OK.

All I'm suggesting, is everyone do their share of research. I've found a lot of information YOU post that is ZLE-specific, according to you, that is not. Whatever. I'm, usually, confident in what I post as fact (according to my experience/research), but I can/do make mistakes, and I would never lead anyone to believe I'm an expert in anything. Hence - I recommend to anyone to do your own research.

I don't have confidence in GM, but they engineered these vehicles. What makes anyone who was not directly part of that process a better expert than them? You can lash out all you want. I don't care, because your statements aren't of value to me. Where I have an issue is when someone posts like an expert, and constantly posts incorrect information. They might only be small infractions on details that aren't too big to affect much, but HUGE claims of making exhaust, tuning by coolant temperature, and other crap I don't care to invest time in finding motivates me to emphasize to anyone to do their own research.

Don't just take my word, or anyone else's. Do you own research and filter the data to find the good and consistent resources.

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by radz28

OK.


I don't have confidence in GM, but they engineered these vehicles. What makes anyone who was not directly part of that process a better expert than them? You can lash out all you want.

Never said I am an expert at anything other than the experiences I have shared. Certainly would not "Lash Out" or direct anything of the sorts to you or your experiences, as they are yours. If that is how you took the information I have shared, my apologies.

There are several videos that can be found where several former GM Drivetrain Engineers have open discussions about how the transmission philosophy at GM has transpired over the years, leading to thousands of failures due to "rolling the dice" on warranty vs trade-in vs customer paid repairs. The transmission failure resulted in more retail sales across dealerships than any other failure mechanism.